Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Dave Smith]

Gents;

I've been remiss, since Border Wars, here in KC, in posting these
comments and hopefully illiciting some feedback. Bear in mind, that
I've yet to play a full Warrior game (soon to change), but did have
a lot of experience with 6th/7th. These observations are based from
the perspective of an objective observer that has familiarity with
many tabletop ancient (and non-ancient) games.

Observation #1: I do not ever recall, when I played TOG and 6th,
having the battlefield clutter that I observed at Border Wars. By
that, I mean, it looked like someone had come along and dropped a
scrabble game on many of tables. In some cases, the letters (which
stood for Tired, Disordered, etc) dwarfed the figures on the table,
and were even piled on top of the figures, making it look like a
unit of T's was fighting a unit of D's. Very distracting for a
casual observer, I thought.

We used to take great pride in the PUB of our ancient games played
at our local club, HASA (Heart of America Society of Ancients). PUB
stood for "prettying up the battlefield", and we used figures for
casualties and disorder, used our unit rosters to track fatigue, and
generally kept a pretty clean tabletop. We also used some pretty
nifty terrain pieces, and our goal was to make the game as enjoyable
to watch as it was to play.

I know I probably care too much about the aesthetics of the hobby,
but I think IMHO there should be a nice balance, otherwise we should
all play boardgames. This segways into my other observation, which
is along the same vein as the first one:

Observation #2: In some of the games I saw, the figure morphing that
was done was so extensive and exaggerated that you would not have
been able to guess the army. I understand that it is sometimes
necessary to use figures that are not what they appear to be, but
geez, louise, I couldn't have guessed one particular army in a
million years.

Again, I note, that I probably tend to want to see more eye candy,
and the proper figs used with my games, (I want my Alexandrian
phalanx to look like that-not landsknechts). I did overhear some
casual observers in the dealer hall chuckling about some of the
games. I think this can do more to dissuade someone from getting
into the hobby/system, etc. than anything else.

Compare that to the Flames of War tourney that was run previous to
the Warrior tourney-superbly painted and correctly presented
figures. Great looking terrain and buildings. And, most, if not
all the participants were the same in both tourneys. Go figure.

As one that is entering the Warrior world soon, I hope to play in
some exciting, and challenging games, but ones that are also nice to
look at and enjoy.

Regards,

Dave Smith

[Chris Bump]

Dave,
On this I could not agree with you more. Having said that I immediately become
a hypocrite because I used Macedonian Pikemen as Commagean hoplites (pikemen) at
FWW. A couple of problems arise in tournament play vs kitchen play. By kitchen
play I refer to other than tournament games.

I am a huge proponent of pretty terrrain. We go to great lengths to have
undulating terrain and three dimensional terrain pieces in our kitchen games.
But this takes time to set up. Believe me, I have been up til 3 am the night
before some of our "kitchen games" laying out terrain. Additionally pretty
terrain is something most are discouraged to travel with. I would never place
my tree stands in a box to go in a Plane's hold. Consequently felt and lichen
has to do. Because our terrain from battle to battle will inevitably change we
are forced to bring multiple combinations of terrain to a tournament.

I love the idea of figure stands to demonstrate disorder, shaken or route.
Perhaps even tired. I so loathe the multi colored pipe cleaners or washers
laid on the table these days, but a method is needed. Here in DFW we used
colored counters with appropriate information printed on them, but they are only
moderately better when considering the aesthetics of the game. Painted figures
cost time and money and many would likely be unwilling to spend the extra time
and effort to produce multiple tired, shaken, routed or disordered stands. You
may need as many as 10 or more of each type of stand! People are not as
thorough at keeping track of fatigue as we would all like. Tournament Games are
timed, things overlooked. Markers help us to recall state and previous bounds'
events. I don't like them anymore than you, but definitely see the need.

Our gaming is quite unique as well. The civil war battles or Napoleonic or WWII
battles we all admire at the cons have a great advantage over our gaming. A
table is set up and then not torn down until the day is over or the organizer is
ready to go home. We tear our battlefields down every 3-4 hours and need to be
able to do it quickly so that we still have time to get something to eat. This
allows the prior the nicety of setting up a beautiful battlefield and maybe
fighting over it 2 or 3 or 4 times in a day. We are somewhat discouraged from
this same tact.

I am a proponent for preset terrain tournaments. This allows for much more
opportunity to have nice terrain. However, this is not everyone's cup of tea
and so since we want to attract as many folks as possible we defer to the
preferreed 14.0 terrain system.

I guess what I am saying is that I am with you completely but also see how
quickly any attempt at PUB'ing will degenerate.
Be assured that which ever battle you are competing with be plenty pretty just
because your figures are on the table.
Chris




----- Original Message -----
From: David Smith
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:56 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Comment or Two from the Peanut Gallery



Gents;

I've been remiss, since Border Wars, here in KC, in posting these
comments and hopefully illiciting some feedback. Bear in mind, that
I've yet to play a full Warrior game (soon to change), but did have
a lot of experience with 6th/7th. These observations are based from
the perspective of an objective observer that has familiarity with
many tabletop ancient (and non-ancient) games.

Observation #1: I do not ever recall, when I played TOG and 6th,
having the battlefield clutter that I observed at Border Wars. By
that, I mean, it looked like someone had come along and dropped a
scrabble game on many of tables. In some cases, the letters (which
stood for Tired, Disordered, etc) dwarfed the figures on the table,
and were even piled on top of the figures, making it look like a
unit of T's was fighting a unit of D's. Very distracting for a
casual observer, I thought.

We used to take great pride in the PUB of our ancient games played
at our local club, HASA (Heart of America Society of Ancients). PUB
stood for "prettying up the battlefield", and we used figures for
casualties and disorder, used our unit rosters to track fatigue, and
generally kept a pretty clean tabletop. We also used some pretty
nifty terrain pieces, and our goal was to make the game as enjoyable
to watch as it was to play.

I know I probably care too much about the aesthetics of the hobby,
but I think IMHO there should be a nice balance, otherwise we should
all play boardgames. This segways into my other observation, which
is along the same vein as the first one:

Observation #2: In some of the games I saw, the figure morphing that
was done was so extensive and exaggerated that you would not have
been able to guess the army. I understand that it is sometimes
necessary to use figures that are not what they appear to be, but
geez, louise, I couldn't have guessed one particular army in a
million years.

Again, I note, that I probably tend to want to see more eye candy,
and the proper figs used with my games, (I want my Alexandrian
phalanx to look like that-not landsknechts). I did overhear some
casual observers in the dealer hall chuckling about some of the
games. I think this can do more to dissuade someone from getting
into the hobby/system, etc. than anything else.

Compare that to the Flames of War tourney that was run previous to
the Warrior tourney-superbly painted and correctly presented
figures. Great looking terrain and buildings. And, most, if not
all the participants were the same in both tourneys. Go figure.

As one that is entering the Warrior world soon, I hope to play in
some exciting, and challenging games, but ones that are also nice to
look at and enjoy.

Regards,

Dave Smith




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Dave,

If getting you to play Warrior means that I have to go back to using a
roster and or painting up wounded soldiers as counters to make the game more
presentable instead of my counters that clutter up the presentation, so be it.
Starting today I will no longer be using my counters for fatigue. Unfortunately,
in tournament games where I'm apt to forget things like which units I want to
counter, it's good to be able to mark units with "C's" and "R's" b/c my memory
sucks when I'm thinking about a million other things. My answer for that will be
to try to repaint my counters to a less obnoxious color rather than the bare
wood or non turf colors. I realize that to some of us that play, presentation is
more important than to guys who play the game as "power gamers." Heck, Bob Rossi
once told me that two Four Horseman aquaintances and myself are triple "A"
personalities when it comes to gaming (we all used to stay at Bob's house for
Nashcon). Basically, Bob meant that we cared more about
the competition than the looks/presentation, hence the felt! And If it makes
your gaming experience more fun, I am willing to accomodate. So hey, when are
you up for a game of Fast Warrior? My Schedule is open any time you can get
away.
Your Friend,

kelly-"Pete"

David Smith <davidsmith@...> wrote:

Gents;

I've been remiss, since Border Wars, here in KC, in posting these
comments and hopefully illiciting some feedback. Bear in mind, that
I've yet to play a full Warrior game (soon to change), but did have
a lot of experience with 6th/7th. These observations are based from
the perspective of an objective observer that has familiarity with
many tabletop ancient (and non-ancient) games.

Observation #1: I do not ever recall, when I played TOG and 6th,
having the battlefield clutter that I observed at Border Wars. By
that, I mean, it looked like someone had come along and dropped a
scrabble game on many of tables. In some cases, the letters (which
stood for Tired, Disordered, etc) dwarfed the figures on the table,
and were even piled on top of the figures, making it look like a
unit of T's was fighting a unit of D's. Very distracting for a
casual observer, I thought.

We used to take great pride in the PUB of our ancient games played
at our local club, HASA (Heart of America Society of Ancients). PUB
stood for "prettying up the battlefield", and we used figures for
casualties and disorder, used our unit rosters to track fatigue, and
generally kept a pretty clean tabletop. We also used some pretty
nifty terrain pieces, and our goal was to make the game as enjoyable
to watch as it was to play.

I know I probably care too much about the aesthetics of the hobby,
but I think IMHO there should be a nice balance, otherwise we should
all play boardgames. This segways into my other observation, which
is along the same vein as the first one:

Observation #2: In some of the games I saw, the figure morphing that
was done was so extensive and exaggerated that you would not have
been able to guess the army. I understand that it is sometimes
necessary to use figures that are not what they appear to be, but
geez, louise, I couldn't have guessed one particular army in a
million years.

Again, I note, that I probably tend to want to see more eye candy,
and the proper figs used with my games, (I want my Alexandrian
phalanx to look like that-not landsknechts). I did overhear some
casual observers in the dealer hall chuckling about some of the
games. I think this can do more to dissuade someone from getting
into the hobby/system, etc. than anything else.

Compare that to the Flames of War tourney that was run previous to
the Warrior tourney-superbly painted and correctly presented
figures. Great looking terrain and buildings. And, most, if not
all the participants were the same in both tourneys. Go figure.

As one that is entering the Warrior world soon, I hope to play in
some exciting, and challenging games, but ones that are also nice to
look at and enjoy.

Regards,

Dave Smith




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Dave Smith writes:
<<Observation #1: I do not ever recall, when I played TOG and 6th,
having the battlefield clutter that I observed at Border Wars. By
that, I mean, it looked like someone had come along and dropped a
scrabble game on many of tables. In some cases, the letters (which
stood for Tired, Disordered, etc) dwarfed the figures on the table,
and were even piled on top of the figures, making it look like a
unit of T's was fighting a unit of D's. Very distracting for a
casual observer, I thought. >>
[
Yes, and I may have been an accomplice here. There's an old Courier article
that shows two photos - one of a game with all kinds of colored dice and
casualty caps and rules and the same game with dice moved aside and the markers
are small letters painted the same color as the ground cloth. Night and day in
terms of PUB. Although Warrior has a means to show all battle states with no
markers whatsoever, I have grown away from that while teaching the game and used
small wooden letters painted green. It is true that some of our local recruits
have huge letters, or ones painted bright colors. To help with PUB, I will
commit to using the no-marker way of marking troop state - and to work towards
using figures as we do in WW2 and Napoleonics.

<<I know I probably care too much about the aesthetics of the hobby,
but I think IMHO there should be a nice balance, otherwise we should
all play boardgames.>>

No, your concerns are valid and I have voiced the exact same ones about terrain
here.

<<Observation #2: In some of the games I saw, the figure morphing that
was done was so extensive and exaggerated that you would not have
been able to guess the army.>>

This is a long-standing issue in Warrior and also one I have voiced concerns
about. The issue is, we are recruiting people who are coming from entirely
outside the ancients hobby. They are not all painters, not all rich and do not
all have time. I would rather they played with an army that is their first work
in progress than to sit because it wasn't pretty enough.

<< I couldn't have guessed one particular army in a
million years. >>

Ok, that's strange. I know five of the 8 at least to be exactly correct (three
of which were mine...), so not sure what you saw. Todd's was in progress and he
is a hero to have painted as much on his own as he has. Also he had to finish
his Araucanians for the league that just started up - He needs some slack cut,
and a new guy with heart will always get it from me. I think Jon Becker, who is
working on his 25's for next year, might have had some offenses in his. I don't
know about the last army as I did not see it.
It is something to be worked on, but 15s will never look like the 25's you are
used to owning and we are still in the training mode to a large extent with some
of these folks who are entering the genre for the first time.

<< I did overhear some
casual observers in the dealer hall chuckling about some of the
games. >>

Oh, Dave, and we agree on so many things...lol but there wasn't anyone at the
Border Wars dealer area in a position to dis our figs...lol The guy from little
wars maybe, but if you had seen the junk they brought to the FoW event at
Origins...lol

<<Compare that to the Flames of War tourney that was run previous to
the Warrior tourney-superbly painted and correctly presented
figures. Great looking terrain and buildings. And, most, if not
all the participants were the same in both tourneys. Go figure.>>

A FoW army is a tiny fraction of the work that a Warrior army is, Dave. No real
comparison..

But! Great points well taken. I will put my personal effort into working on
these areas.

Jon

[Dave Smith]

JonCleaves@a... wrote:

This is a long-standing issue in Warrior and also one I have voiced
concerns about. The issue is, we are recruiting people who are
coming from entirely outside the ancients hobby. They are not all
painters, not all rich and do not all have time. I would rather
they played with an army that is their first work in progress than
to sit because it wasn't pretty enough.

<DS>Jon, not suggesting that you need be rich or a painter. And, I
do understand the morphing that goes on. I'm just adding some
objective observations that may (or may not) have been shared by
others that viewed the tourney. I would never tell someone that you
have to have expertly painted figures to play a game. My comments
were more oriented toward "What the heck is that army?"


I couldn't have guessed one particular army in a
million years.

Ok, that's strange. I know five of the 8 at least to be exactly
correct (three of which were mine...), so not sure what you saw.
Todd's was in progress and he is a hero to have painted as much on
his own as he has. Also he had to finish his Araucanians for the
league that just started up - He needs some slack cut, and a new guy
with heart will always get it from me. I think Jon Becker, who is
working on his 25's for next year, might have had some offenses in
his. I don't know about the last army as I did not see it.
It is something to be worked on, but 15s will never look like the
25's you are used to owning and we are still in the training mode to
a large extent with some of these folks who are entering the genre
for the first time.


<DS>Again, not suggesting that players need superbly painted 25's in
order to play. And perhaps, because this was a 'one-off' tourney
[1200 point Dogs of War] it drove the morphing a little more....no
problems with that-again just my personal unbiased observations that
I wanted to voice.


I did overhear some
asual observers in the dealer hall chuckling about some of the
games. >>

Oh, Dave, and we agree on so many things...lol but there wasn't
anyone at the Border Wars dealer area in a position to dis our
figs...lol The guy from little wars maybe, but if you had seen the
junk they brought to the FoW event at Origins...lol


<DS> No, it wasn't dealers, it was actually other players. No big
deal, really, other than it made me a little defensive, since I plan
on joining the Warrior movement. I defended by saying it was a 'one-
off' tourney.

A FoW army is a tiny fraction of the work that a Warrior army is,
Dave. No real comparison..

<DS> Really?!? Well, whatever, they were sure attractive games.

But! Great points well taken. I will put my personal effort into
working on these areas.

<DS>Maybe, you could solicit some markers as prizes for the next
tourney, rather than unpainted lead or similar.

Dave

[joncleaves]

Again, Dave, don't misunderstand me. I totally agree with what you are saying
and we need to step it up.

<<A FoW army is a tiny fraction of the work that a Warrior army is,
Dave. No real comparison..

<DS> Really?!? Well, whatever, they were sure attractive games.>>

I won the best painted award for the FoW event and then only by a hair. The
force I painted took me about two weeks for the balance of the painting - until
that point I had only dabbled with the figs a little at a time. A 1600 point
Warrior force takes me three months of the same level of effort. Two german
marders and their crewmen I could do in a day or two - the same percentage of
points of a Warrior army would be about two knight units and would take me a
week each...
But you're right again that it being a Dogs of War moved us all off our main
showpiece armies. Something we need to consider for the future when we do a
specialized tourney like that.

Players or dealers, there wasn't anyone in the con area with a better force than
Matt's English, my Seleucids or Burgundians or the Sassanids Charles borrowed
from Kelly...nor could there be any confusion as to what those armies or Steve's
Condotta were. I didn't get a good look at Kelly's germans and yes, it is true
there was serious proxying in Todd's and Jon B's armies.

<DS>Maybe, you could solicit some markers as prizes for the next
tourney, rather than unpainted lead or similar. >>

Now THAT is a great idea. I'm on it......thanks!

Jon

[Patrick Byrne]

My main comment on non-PUB'ness, is that I'll take donations, especially
free painted lead. Then when I get all my army and terrain upto snuff, I'll
donate to someone else.

My problem is that I like the figs to be painted appropriately as well (like
my Vikings at Border Wars). However, if I could just spay paint a bunch of
guys blue or gray, and trim out their white sashes, then maybe I'd have four
times the lead with mediocre paint quality but correct weaponry. Ofcourse
my cool terrian output would increase as well.

No, I'll stick to my philosophy of painting to own. I want an army, I am
currently painting the figs, but not having all the figs painted is not
going to keep me from playing in a tournament.

My problem is with guys who have 4 or 5 armies, but decide to play an army
in a tournament that they don't plan to own - just a one time thing.


BTW#1, if you donate lead, what kind of tax write-off can you get. Not
expecting an answer, as whose ever donated lead.

BTW#2, Does anyone actually have more painted lead than unpainted lead?

BTW#3, Anyone (Jon excluded) find they are starting to reply to email on
this YahooGroup moreso than painting. Not to put this group into a
tailspin, but some people could have cranked out an army with as much time
they've spent writing emails.

-PB



----- Original Message -----
From: "David Smith" <davidsmith@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:56 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Comment or Two from the Peanut Gallery


>
>
> Gents;
>
> I've been remiss, since Border Wars, here in KC, in posting these
> comments and hopefully illiciting some feedback. Bear in mind, that
> I've yet to play a full Warrior game (soon to change), but did have
> a lot of experience with 6th/7th. These observations are based from
> the perspective of an objective observer that has familiarity with
> many tabletop ancient (and non-ancient) games.
>
> Observation #1: I do not ever recall, when I played TOG and 6th,
> having the battlefield clutter that I observed at Border Wars. By
> that, I mean, it looked like someone had come along and dropped a
> scrabble game on many of tables. In some cases, the letters (which
> stood for Tired, Disordered, etc) dwarfed the figures on the table,
> and were even piled on top of the figures, making it look like a
> unit of T's was fighting a unit of D's. Very distracting for a
> casual observer, I thought.
>
> We used to take great pride in the PUB of our ancient games played
> at our local club, HASA (Heart of America Society of Ancients). PUB
> stood for "prettying up the battlefield", and we used figures for
> casualties and disorder, used our unit rosters to track fatigue, and
> generally kept a pretty clean tabletop. We also used some pretty
> nifty terrain pieces, and our goal was to make the game as enjoyable
> to watch as it was to play.
>
> I know I probably care too much about the aesthetics of the hobby,
> but I think IMHO there should be a nice balance, otherwise we should
> all play boardgames. This segways into my other observation, which
> is along the same vein as the first one:
>
> Observation #2: In some of the games I saw, the figure morphing that
> was done was so extensive and exaggerated that you would not have
> been able to guess the army. I understand that it is sometimes
> necessary to use figures that are not what they appear to be, but
> geez, louise, I couldn't have guessed one particular army in a
> million years.
>
> Again, I note, that I probably tend to want to see more eye candy,
> and the proper figs used with my games, (I want my Alexandrian
> phalanx to look like that-not landsknechts). I did overhear some
> casual observers in the dealer hall chuckling about some of the
> games. I think this can do more to dissuade someone from getting
> into the hobby/system, etc. than anything else.
>
> Compare that to the Flames of War tourney that was run previous to
> the Warrior tourney-superbly painted and correctly presented
> figures. Great looking terrain and buildings. And, most, if not
> all the participants were the same in both tourneys. Go figure.
>
> As one that is entering the Warrior world soon, I hope to play in
> some exciting, and challenging games, but ones that are also nice to
> look at and enjoy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Smith
>

I have a ratio of 10 to 1 painted to unpainted lead these days... I have
found that I do not paint much anymore


> [Original Message]
> From: Patrick B <cuan@...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 10/14/2004 6:23:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Comment or Two from the Peanut Gallery
>
>
> My main comment on non-PUB'ness, is that I'll take donations, especially
> free painted lead. Then when I get all my army and terrain upto snuff,
I'll
> donate to someone else.
>
> My problem is that I like the figs to be painted appropriately as well
(like
> my Vikings at Border Wars). However, if I could just spay paint a bunch
of
> guys blue or gray, and trim out their white sashes, then maybe I'd have
four
> times the lead with mediocre paint quality but correct weaponry. Ofcourse
> my cool terrian output would increase as well.
>
> No, I'll stick to my philosophy of painting to own. I want an army, I am
> currently painting the figs, but not having all the figs painted is not
> going to keep me from playing in a tournament.
>
> My problem is with guys who have 4 or 5 armies, but decide to play an army
> in a tournament that they don't plan to own - just a one time thing.
>
>
> BTW#1, if you donate lead, what kind of tax write-off can you get. Not
> expecting an answer, as whose ever donated lead.
>
> BTW#2, Does anyone actually have more painted lead than unpainted lead?
>
> BTW#3, Anyone (Jon excluded) find they are starting to reply to email on
> this YahooGroup moreso than painting. Not to put this group into a
> tailspin, but some people could have cranked out an army with as much time
> they've spent writing emails.
>
> -PB
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Smith" <davidsmith@...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:56 PM
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Comment or Two from the Peanut Gallery
>
>
> >
> >
> > Gents;
> >
> > I've been remiss, since Border Wars, here in KC, in posting these
> > comments and hopefully illiciting some feedback. Bear in mind, that
> > I've yet to play a full Warrior game (soon to change), but did have
> > a lot of experience with 6th/7th. These observations are based from
> > the perspective of an objective observer that has familiarity with
> > many tabletop ancient (and non-ancient) games.
> >
> > Observation #1: I do not ever recall, when I played TOG and 6th,
> > having the battlefield clutter that I observed at Border Wars. By
> > that, I mean, it looked like someone had come along and dropped a
> > scrabble game on many of tables. In some cases, the letters (which
> > stood for Tired, Disordered, etc) dwarfed the figures on the table,
> > and were even piled on top of the figures, making it look like a
> > unit of T's was fighting a unit of D's. Very distracting for a
> > casual observer, I thought.
> >
> > We used to take great pride in the PUB of our ancient games played
> > at our local club, HASA (Heart of America Society of Ancients). PUB
> > stood for "prettying up the battlefield", and we used figures for
> > casualties and disorder, used our unit rosters to track fatigue, and
> > generally kept a pretty clean tabletop. We also used some pretty
> > nifty terrain pieces, and our goal was to make the game as enjoyable
> > to watch as it was to play.
> >
> > I know I probably care too much about the aesthetics of the hobby,
> > but I think IMHO there should be a nice balance, otherwise we should
> > all play boardgames. This segways into my other observation, which
> > is along the same vein as the first one:
> >
> > Observation #2: In some of the games I saw, the figure morphing that
> > was done was so extensive and exaggerated that you would not have
> > been able to guess the army. I understand that it is sometimes
> > necessary to use figures that are not what they appear to be, but
> > geez, louise, I couldn't have guessed one particular army in a
> > million years.
> >
> > Again, I note, that I probably tend to want to see more eye candy,
> > and the proper figs used with my games, (I want my Alexandrian
> > phalanx to look like that-not landsknechts). I did overhear some
> > casual observers in the dealer hall chuckling about some of the
> > games. I think this can do more to dissuade someone from getting
> > into the hobby/system, etc. than anything else.
> >
> > Compare that to the Flames of War tourney that was run previous to
> > the Warrior tourney-superbly painted and correctly presented
> > figures. Great looking terrain and buildings. And, most, if not
> > all the participants were the same in both tourneys. Go figure.
> >
> > As one that is entering the Warrior world soon, I hope to play in
> > some exciting, and challenging games, but ones that are also nice to
> > look at and enjoy.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dave Smith
> >
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