Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Mike,

> Being an aggressive player, there is little I hate more than a
player hiding at the back side of the table while three two element
LI units hold up my entire army for 10 turns.

Yep. Been there, done that. Boring as all hell and I agree.

>I doubt in real life that the LI unit waited around to see what
> effect their fire had. In fact they were probably already falling
>back as they threw javelins or shot their missiles.

Yep, I agree also.

>If that small shieldless MI unit is
> out there by itself, then the LI can out flank it and then it has
>no reason to recall.

Used as an illistration only. I once played against a Selucid (I
think..) who had a 48 man MI Bow unit 6 elements wide, 2 elements
deep, supported by elephants at each end. I approached the bow unit
with 2 units of LI each 3 elements wide, 2 elements deep (12 figures
per unit), front rank JLS, Sh and the rear B supported on their
flanks by scutoi HI LTS, D, Sh and B in testudo for the elephants.

The LI got to 40 paces from the MI and fired. LI = 24 @ 3 (JLS/B vs
MI) + 3 for shieldless = 24@5! At evens, he still had to take a
waver test. I shot, he failed the waver test and shook. He shot,
one unit of LI got hit for 3cpf and elected to rally back rather than
take the waver test. The other unit only got hit for 1cpf.

The "good" LI charged, the MI failed their second waver test, turned,
LI hit, MI routed, Elphants waver tested. The one close to the LI
failed (2 causes of unease - enemy behind flank and not supported to
rear), the other passed. The HI charged the shaken elephant unit
next bound and his centre was on it's way home.

So yes, LI CAN zap close formation foot in the right conditions
and should be allowed to benefit from it. Under the new rules I
would NOT have elected to take a waver test so would have Recalled.
Thus the LI could not have charged the MI even though the shooting
factors made it clear that even throwing -1 would still result in the
MI taking a waver test.

> I also hear the comment all the time about flexibility. Very
>few armies had flexibility as we define it. As we define
>flexibility, it is the ability to change the orders and standard
>practices of a unit already engaged in combat, which the general
>can't see, at a moment's notice and have the unit immediately react
>in a manner totally different from expected. Even modern
> armies with radios and small units can't react as well as we expect
>poorly trained and motivated units in this period to perform.

My point of flexibility was for the rules, not the army. Takeing
advantage of results BEFORE needing to decide an action. Real troops
have been known to exploit an unexpected development, despite their
standing orders.

> Your question about grade D troops wavering before charging leaves
>me a bit puzzled. If they are not LI, they don't have to waver or
>recall, so there is no test. If you prompt them to charge, then
>before charging they waver test.

Yes. I didn't word that very well did I? What I meant to say
was "Would you like to see a rule where ALL D grade troops (close,
loose and open) take a waver test at the end of Counters /
Retirements BEFORE you even decide if you want them to charge? Even
before you see the results of prep shooting?" I was trying to put
across that, unless you REALLY, REALLY need to, you will never
VOLUNTEER to waver test D grades (or any other grade either!) so why
should you expect other troops to do so UNTIL needed? If the LI
shoot well, they will not need to recall so why test? And even if I
decide to test them before prep shooting and they pass, they will
EVADE if the close or loose DECIDE to charge. But would you PROMPT D
grade close or loose to charge LI? Not bloody likely! You'll find
LC, HC, LI, Knights, ANYTHING, to chase them off rather that prompt
the D's to charge and take that waver test.


> In the end, I totally agree with your closing paragraph.
>
> Mike

I rest my case Your Honour. Beers all round and Damnation to Rome!

[Rob Turnball]

Sorry to jump into this so late. My understanding is that the unit must be
in good order at the time for rally backs. If not the injunction falls away.
I.e. if the unit turns its flank to a unit that elected to rally back in
counters they then change the requirement, similarly if the unit becomes
disordered or shake the LI can charge them or just stay where they are for
next turn.
Probably retreading a well worn turf, however rally backs are last not so?
Robert Turnbull
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Honeyman" <loki_in_oz@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 12:01 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: D grades and waver


> Mike,
>
> > Being an aggressive player, there is little I hate more than a
> player hiding at the back side of the table while three two element
> LI units hold up my entire army for 10 turns.
>
> Yep. Been there, done that. Boring as all hell and I agree.
>
> >I doubt in real life that the LI unit waited around to see what
> > effect their fire had. In fact they were probably already falling
> >back as they threw javelins or shot their missiles.
>
> Yep, I agree also.
>
> >If that small shieldless MI unit is
> > out there by itself, then the LI can out flank it and then it has
> >no reason to recall.
>
> Used as an illistration only. I once played against a Selucid (I
> think..) who had a 48 man MI Bow unit 6 elements wide, 2 elements
> deep, supported by elephants at each end. I approached the bow unit
> with 2 units of LI each 3 elements wide, 2 elements deep (12 figures
> per unit), front rank JLS, Sh and the rear B supported on their
> flanks by scutoi HI LTS, D, Sh and B in testudo for the elephants.
>
> The LI got to 40 paces from the MI and fired. LI = 24 @ 3 (JLS/B vs
> MI) + 3 for shieldless = 24@5! At evens, he still had to take a
> waver test. I shot, he failed the waver test and shook. He shot,
> one unit of LI got hit for 3cpf and elected to rally back rather than
> take the waver test. The other unit only got hit for 1cpf.
>
> The "good" LI charged, the MI failed their second waver test, turned,
> LI hit, MI routed, Elphants waver tested. The one close to the LI
> failed (2 causes of unease - enemy behind flank and not supported to
> rear), the other passed. The HI charged the shaken elephant unit
> next bound and his centre was on it's way home.
>
> So yes, LI CAN zap close formation foot in the right conditions
> and should be allowed to benefit from it. Under the new rules I
> would NOT have elected to take a waver test so would have Recalled.
> Thus the LI could not have charged the MI even though the shooting
> factors made it clear that even throwing -1 would still result in the
> MI taking a waver test.
>
> > I also hear the comment all the time about flexibility. Very
> >few armies had flexibility as we define it. As we define
> >flexibility, it is the ability to change the orders and standard
> >practices of a unit already engaged in combat, which the general
> >can't see, at a moment's notice and have the unit immediately react
> >in a manner totally different from expected. Even modern
> > armies with radios and small units can't react as well as we expect
> >poorly trained and motivated units in this period to perform.
>
> My point of flexibility was for the rules, not the army. Takeing
> advantage of results BEFORE needing to decide an action. Real troops
> have been known to exploit an unexpected development, despite their
> standing orders.
>
> > Your question about grade D troops wavering before charging leaves
> >me a bit puzzled. If they are not LI, they don't have to waver or
> >recall, so there is no test. If you prompt them to charge, then
> >before charging they waver test.
>
> Yes. I didn't word that very well did I? What I meant to say
> was "Would you like to see a rule where ALL D grade troops (close,
> loose and open) take a waver test at the end of Counters /
> Retirements BEFORE you even decide if you want them to charge? Even
> before you see the results of prep shooting?" I was trying to put
> across that, unless you REALLY, REALLY need to, you will never
> VOLUNTEER to waver test D grades (or any other grade either!) so why
> should you expect other troops to do so UNTIL needed? If the LI
> shoot well, they will not need to recall so why test? And even if I
> decide to test them before prep shooting and they pass, they will
> EVADE if the close or loose DECIDE to charge. But would you PROMPT D
> grade close or loose to charge LI? Not bloody likely! You'll find
> LC, HC, LI, Knights, ANYTHING, to chase them off rather that prompt
> the D's to charge and take that waver test.
>
>
> > In the end, I totally agree with your closing paragraph.
> >
> > Mike
>
> I rest my case Your Honour. Beers all round and Damnation to Rome!
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

[Chris Bump]

Robert,

Just as a unit need only take a waiver test once for second cause of combat
disorder, no matter how many times he is disordered in a given bound; I would
argue for only one waiver test for the LI to stay put in the face of close or
loose order foot.

Does a loose order unit take multiple waiver tests for being charged in the
open by multiple Cav units during the same phase?

Chris

Robert,

True, the target must be in good order but at the end of COUNTERS /
RETIREMENTS, not after prep shooting. My thrust is in scrapping the
need for the LI to CHOOSE to take a waver test or CHOOSE to Recall
(rally back) at the END of conters / retirements. If the LI chose to
Recall instead of taking the waver test, the LI CANNOT charge the MI
if the target fails a waver test. See my example at the very bottom of
the message you responded to.

I have not seen any indication that suggests the Recall decision is
"forgotten" if the target close or loose fails a waver test or becomes
disordered.

But now I think of it, I have a question for Jon and the playtesters;
If the LI in the scenario below tested for waver at the end of
counters / retirements and passed, would the LI unit that was shot for
2cpf need to test again to stay after prep shooting? Seeing how LI /
skirmishers shot for 2cpf must either Recall or waver test. Or does
the waver test at the end of counters / retirements cover this?

Cheers



--- In WarriorRules@y..., "Robert J. Turnbull" <rjturnbull@b...>
wrote:
> Sorry to jump into this so late. My understanding is that the unit
must be
> in good order at the time for rally backs. If not the injunction
falls away.
> I.e. if the unit turns its flank to a unit that elected to rally
back in
> counters they then change the requirement, similarly if the unit
becomes
> disordered or shake the LI can charge them or just stay where they
are for
> next turn.
> Probably retreading a well worn turf, however rally backs are last
not so?
> Robert Turnbull
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Honeyman" <loki_in_oz@y...>
> To: <WarriorRules@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 12:01 AM
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: D grades and waver
>
>

--- In WarriorRules@y..., "Robert J. Turnbull" <rjturnbull@b...>
wrote:
> Sorry to jump into this so late. My understanding is that the unit
must be
> in good order at the time for rally backs. If not the injunction
falls away.
> I.e. if the unit turns its flank to a unit that elected to rally
back in
> counters they then change the requirement, similarly if the unit
becomes
> disordered or shake the LI can charge them or just stay where they
are for
> next turn.
> Probably retreading a well worn turf, however rally backs are last
not so?


Your last point is my point as well. The Recall is made at end of
turn, so why not the choice and the waver test as well? That being
said, the choice at end of shooting is OK. After all, if the shooting
is no good, the LI will presumably start to give ground (as argued
below). This all gets back to wargames simulating a fluid situation by
using discrete phases - and that's all I dare say on the topic - way
too vexatious for me to tread.


> > Mike,
> >
> > > Being an aggressive player, there is little I hate more than
a
> > player hiding at the back side of the table while three two
element
> > LI units hold up my entire army for 10 turns.
> >
> > Yep. Been there, done that. Boring as all hell and I agree.

Players do that? I could possibly accept Regular LI units being 2
elements only, but Irregulars? What of the spirit of the rules?
(Irregulars using larger unit sizes . . . I can feel an X-Rule coming
on . . .)


> >
> > >I doubt in real life that the LI unit waited around to see what
> > > effect their fire had. In fact they were probably already
falling
> > >back as they threw javelins or shot their missiles.
> >
> > Yep, I agree also.
> >

--- SNIP SNIP ---

[Rob Turnball]

What I was trying to say is that even if the unit had elected to rally back,
if the cause of the rally back dissapears (no longer at 40 paces from a
steady close formation foot body) the unit should not need to rally back.
Thanks
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: <cncbump@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: D grades and waver


> Robert,
>
> Just as a unit need only take a waiver test once for second cause of
combat
> disorder, no matter how many times he is disordered in a given bound; I
would
> argue for only one waiver test for the LI to stay put in the face of close
or
> loose order foot.
>
> Does a loose order unit take multiple waiver tests for being charged in
the
> open by multiple Cav units during the same phase?
>
> Chris
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

You are saying that a 24 man unit of LI would only check once if faced by 6 16 men units of pike?  I disagree they should check for each cause, just like checking for receiving a charge by MTD.
Robert P

Robert,

I agree. But not written that way in the draft rules. I'm hoping the
rules writers will change either the timeing of the decision (after
prep shooting) or allow the chosen recall to be waived if the
shooting of the target has caused a failed waver / disordered result.

Cheers

--- In WarriorRules@y..., "Robert J. Turnbull" <rjturnbull@b...>
wrote:
> What I was trying to say is that even if the unit had elected to
>rally back, if the cause of the rally back dissapears (no longer at
>40 paces from a steady close formation foot body) the unit should
>not need to rally back.
> Thanks
> Robert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <cncbump@a...>
> To: <WarriorRules@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 10:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: D grades and waver
>
>
> > Robert,
> >
> > Just as a unit need only take a waiver test once for second cause
of
> combat
> > disorder, no matter how many times he is disordered in a given
bound; I
> would
> > argue for only one waiver test for the LI to stay put in the face
of close
> or
> > loose order foot.
> >
> > Does a loose order unit take multiple waiver tests for being
charged in
> the
> > open by multiple Cav units during the same phase?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >

Oops! maths was wrong.

LI vs MI = 24 @ 2 + 3 (shieldless) is 24 @ 5 = 96 (2cpf on a 48 man
unit and waver test) Bow were MI Arab Reg D.

A minus 1 would not cause a waver test but still score 1cpf.

Serves me right for doing this without my tables!

Cheers


----- SNIP -------

> Used as an illistration only. I once played against a Selucid (I
> think..) who had a 48 man MI Bow unit 6 elements wide, 2 elements
> deep, ......

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/11/2001 20:03:02 Central Standard Time,
loki_in_oz@... writes:

<< But now I think of it, I have a question for Jon and the playtesters;
If the LI in the scenario below tested for waver at the end of
counters / retirements and passed, would the LI unit that was shot for
2cpf need to test again to stay after prep shooting?>>

Yup. But if it already chose to recall, it would simply recall.