Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Don Coon]

Ok some data on dice cheating. First off, due to popularization by
Hollywood, the general populace thinks that loaded dice (i.e weights or
magnets) are the way that most people cheat at dice. There are other more
common ways to cheat with dice (more in a moment). On the subject of
weight, the easiest roll to 'weight' for is a one (called a dead ace in
cheaters lexicon). The reason for this is there are 6 areas for weight on
the 6 (on the opposite sides on the 1), plus 1 from the 2 and 3, and 2 each
from the 4 and 5. This creates very strong die. Its application in warrior
is mostly limited to initiative rolls. Of course opaque dice do not suffer
from this like translucent casino dice do, so an opaque die can favor any
side the creator chooses.

So what's more common than weights? First off are 'shapes'. With a shape,
the sides of two opposite faces are shaved down to render the die as an
imperfect cube. The 2 sides shaved now have more surface area than the
others and roll more often. .015 inches is usually enough, but .030 shapes
are know to occur and escape detection. In warrior a die shaped to favor
the 3 and 4 would go unnoticed for a long time, and would insure a lot of
passed wavers.

Second are 'tops' Tops are misspotted dice. Since only 3 sides of a die
can be seen at anytime, buy anyone, a die can be misspotted to duplicate
favored numbers, or eliminate unfavorable ones. Since Warrior dice sit
openly on the table, it would take brass balls to attempt this in a game. A
D6 merely missing a 1 could go a long time without detection however.

Controlled rolling. To be a random roll a die must rotate about two
mutually perpendicular centerplanes. It must spin like a top, while rolling
like a wheel at the same time. The die must exit the palm a minimum of 6
inches from the landing surface and the roller must show a clean palm at the
end. Most players do not do this, but 99.99999% of them are not cheaters.
I am merely stating what must occur to get a random roll with an honest die.
There are many techniques that can be used if a clean palm is not shown,
or a 6 inch drop is not adhered to. Pinky setting, finger clipping,
spinning in the mix, etc are all easily learned in a few hours. Dice cups
are no help unless they are transparent as it is an easy move to learn to
clip a die outside of the cup and set it down to mix (unchanged) with the
rest. While controlling 1 die will not guarantee a result, it sure improves
the odds.

Also as my grandmother thought me at a young age, if you cant make the move,
you cant spot the move. Hollywood overlooks this fact too.

None of this is posted in any way to imply that any of this is going on. It
is merely there for your information. Anyone who cares to learn more can
contact me as they desire.

Don

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, <jjendon@c...> wrote:
> Ok some data on dice cheating. First off, due to popularization by
> Hollywood, the general populace thinks that loaded dice (i.e
weights or
> magnets) are the way that most people cheat at dice. There are
other more
> common ways to cheat with dice (more in a moment).

[snip]

> Controlled rolling. To be a random roll a die must rotate about
two
> mutually perpendicular centerplanes. It must spin like a top,
while rolling
> like a wheel at the same time. The die must exit the palm a
minimum of 6
> inches from the landing surface and the roller must show a clean
palm at the
> end. Most players do not do this, but 99.99999% of them are not
cheaters.
> I am merely stating what must occur to get a random roll with an
honest die.
> There are many techniques that can be used if a clean palm is
not shown,
> or a 6 inch drop is not adhered to. Pinky setting, finger
clipping,
> spinning in the mix, etc are all easily learned in a few hours.
Dice cups
> are no help unless they are transparent as it is an easy move to
learn to
> clip a die outside of the cup and set it down to mix (unchanged)
with the
> rest. While controlling 1 die will not guarantee a result, it
sure improves
> the odds.






When I started this thread, this was precisely my point. Thanks,
Don, for educating me on the science of my discomfort. I knew there
had to be some kind of standard for what constitutes a truly randdom
throw of dice.



Greek

[Don Coon]

> > Controlled rolling. To be a random roll a die must rotate about
> two mutually perpendicular centerplanes. It must spin like a top,
> while rolling like a wheel at the same time. The die must exit the palm a
> minimum of 6 inches from the landing surface and the roller must show a
clean
> palm at the end. Most players do not do this, but 99.99999% of them are
not
> cheaters. I am merely stating what must occur to get a random roll with an
> honest die. There are many techniques that can be used if a clean palm
is
> not shown, or a 6 inch drop is not adhered to. Pinky setting, finger
> clipping, spinning in the mix, etc are all easily learned in a few hours.
> Dice cups are no help unless they are transparent as it is an easy move to
> learn to clip a die outside of the cup and set it down to mix (unchanged)
> with the rest. While controlling 1 die will not guarantee a result, it
> sure improves the odds.

> When I started this thread, this was precisely my point. Thanks,
> Don, for educating me on the science of my discomfort. I knew there
> had to be some kind of standard for what constitutes a truly randdom
> throw of dice.
>

greek

No problem dude. My grandmother tought me this when I was little. In
upstate NY there is a bar game played for money with 5 dice (not yatzee).
Cheating is even easier when the ,ark has been drinking, and people were
almost certainly performing less than honest moves from time to time. My
grandma was pretty good and could protect herself. She tought my brother
and I to never play for money with someone who did not adhere to the 6 inch
clean palm rule so we could protect ourselves too.

Don

First Don, you have way too much time on your hands to know so much
about dice rolling :)

Second, excellent report. Learned something new. I still don't get
how shaving will produce a desired result. I understand how it can
effect randomness, but to me it is replacing one unpredictable
variable with a different one.

I hadn't thought of the same number twice, but then I should have
with the average dice always being the one that lets me down ;)

Wanax

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, <jjendon@c...> wrote:
> Ok some data on dice cheating. First off, due to popularization by
> Hollywood, the general populace thinks that loaded dice (i.e
weights or
> magnets) are the way that most people cheat at dice. There are
other more
> common ways to cheat with dice (more in a moment). On the subject
of
> weight, the easiest roll to 'weight' for is a one (called a dead
ace in
> cheaters lexicon). The reason for this is there are 6 areas for
weight on
> the 6 (on the opposite sides on the 1), plus 1 from the 2 and 3,
and 2 each
> from the 4 and 5. This creates very strong die. Its application
in warrior
> is mostly limited to initiative rolls. Of course opaque dice do
not suffer
> from this like translucent casino dice do, so an opaque die can
favor any
> side the creator chooses.
>
> So what's more common than weights? First off are 'shapes'. With
a shape,
> the sides of two opposite faces are shaved down to render the die
as an
> imperfect cube. The 2 sides shaved now have more surface area than
the
> others and roll more often. .015 inches is usually enough,
but .030 shapes
> are know to occur and escape detection. In warrior a die shaped to
favor
> the 3 and 4 would go unnoticed for a long time, and would insure a
lot of
> passed wavers.
>
> Second are 'tops' Tops are misspotted dice. Since only 3 sides of
a die
> can be seen at anytime, buy anyone, a die can be misspotted to
duplicate
> favored numbers, or eliminate unfavorable ones. Since Warrior dice
sit
> openly on the table, it would take brass balls to attempt this in a
game. A
> D6 merely missing a 1 could go a long time without detection
however.
>
> Controlled rolling. To be a random roll a die must rotate about two
> mutually perpendicular centerplanes. It must spin like a top,
while rolling
> like a wheel at the same time. The die must exit the palm a
minimum of 6
> inches from the landing surface and the roller must show a clean
palm at the
> end. Most players do not do this, but 99.99999% of them are not
cheaters.
> I am merely stating what must occur to get a random roll with an
honest die.
> There are many techniques that can be used if a clean palm is not
shown,
> or a 6 inch drop is not adhered to. Pinky setting, finger clipping,
> spinning in the mix, etc are all easily learned in a few hours.
Dice cups
> are no help unless they are transparent as it is an easy move to
learn to
> clip a die outside of the cup and set it down to mix (unchanged)
with the
> rest. While controlling 1 die will not guarantee a result, it sure
improves
> the odds.
>
> Also as my grandmother thought me at a young age, if you cant make
the move,
> you cant spot the move. Hollywood overlooks this fact too.
>
> None of this is posted in any way to imply that any of this is
going on. It
> is merely there for your information. Anyone who cares to learn
more can
> contact me as they desire.
>
> Don

[Don Coon]

> Second, excellent report. Learned something new. I still don't get
> how shaving will produce a desired result. I understand how it can
> effect randomness, but to me it is replacing one unpredictable
> variable with a different one.

Imagine a perfect cube 1 inch per side. Now shave .015 off the 1 side and
the 6 side. The faces the 1 and the 6 are on are still 1" X 1" , but the
faces the 2,3,4,5 are on are now .970" X .970". This does not guarantee the
desired result, but it makes the die nonrandom. 1 and 6 will each roll more
often than 1 in 6 rolls due to the decreased surface area of the other
sides. In cheaters parlance this is known as a percentage move. For use in
a money making opportunity a pair of these with a strong 5/2 or 3/4 pair
would have trouble rolling 1 and 6. If you eliminate 1 and 6 (or change
their percentages) it is harder to roll a two die total of 2,3 and 12
(craps). So in a craps game, the win percentage of bets placed on the pass
line shifts into the players favor. Conversly a crooked house could do the
same for a 1/6 pair increasing the chances of rolling 2,3, 12. In a Warrior
setting the 3/4 pair would be the best move as it would cause more 3 and 4
die rolls (passing wavers for All A and B, and steady wiiling/eager C).

Don

[Ewan McNay]

jjendon@... wrote:

> In a Warrior setting the 3/4 pair would be the best move as it would cause
more 3 and 4
> die rolls (passing wavers for All A and B, and steady wiiling/eager C).

...while possibly not raising suspicion as would a rash of 6s.
Otherwise I think one would have to go for a 5-6 bias, despite
the downside of losing most initiative rolls. I guess one really
wants two indistinguishable dice, one biased to 1-2, the other to
5-6.

[How did we get here?]

Well of all casino games, the odds for craps are already the best
possible. Almost 1 for 1.

Anyway, I see your point, but I don't think it would be worthwhile
seeing as how with the given dice 1 is as likely as 6
Wanax

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, <jjendon@c...> wrote:
> > Second, excellent report. Learned something new. I still don't
get
> > how shaving will produce a desired result. I understand how it
can
> > effect randomness, but to me it is replacing one unpredictable
> > variable with a different one.
>
> Imagine a perfect cube 1 inch per side. Now shave .015 off the 1
side and
> the 6 side. The faces the 1 and the 6 are on are still 1" X 1" ,
but the
> faces the 2,3,4,5 are on are now .970" X .970". This does not
guarantee the
> desired result, but it makes the die nonrandom. 1 and 6 will each
roll more
> often than 1 in 6 rolls due to the decreased surface area of the
other
> sides. In cheaters parlance this is known as a percentage move.
For use in
> a money making opportunity a pair of these with a strong 5/2 or 3/4
pair
> would have trouble rolling 1 and 6. If you eliminate 1 and 6 (or
change
> their percentages) it is harder to roll a two die total of 2,3 and
12
> (craps). So in a craps game, the win percentage of bets placed on
the pass
> line shifts into the players favor. Conversly a crooked house
could do the
> same for a 1/6 pair increasing the chances of rolling 2,3, 12. In
a Warrior
> setting the 3/4 pair would be the best move as it would cause more
3 and 4
> die rolls (passing wavers for All A and B, and steady wiiling/eager
C).
>
> Don

[Phil Gardocki]

As a group, wargamers are considered scrupulously honest. As an honest
player has trouble finding opponents, a player with a dishonest reputation would
find it impossible.

As an anecdote, while I was contracted with GDW, Mark Miller, the creator of
"Traveler" told me that GDW took checks at conventions, without bothering to
verify if they were good or not. As up till that point, GDW had only received
only 1 bad check in the history of the company.

Phil


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