Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
>
>> I note on the BHGS webpage that one of their international team
> just got found to be using loaded dice. I'm pretty (80%?) sure
> that this happened against me in one tournament, too, but that
> was more than ten years ago.
>
> I can't think of anything else that I've seen that would cause me
> to ban someone.

I thought about whether or not to follow this up and decided to do
so. I just have to get this off my chest and ask what the rest of
you would do inthese type of situations.

I don't remember when or where, but I've definitely had opponents
who didn't seem to understand the concept or purpose of generating a
random factor. One guy, for every important roll, would hold his
rolling hand palm up and place the dice in it in a very specific
configuration (like up 4) and then very carefully and gently flip
them like one would a pancake. It was miraculous how well that guy
rolled when he had to.

For a while I thought requiring dice cups would put the kibosh on
this sort of behavior, until I saw a guy using a cup the same way.
He would carefully arrange the dice in the cup and than carefully
and quickly turn the mouth of the cup directly on to the tabletop,
trapping the dice within. Remove the cup and voila: the dice were as
he liked, reverse sides up from the way he had placed them in the
cup.

I, of course, did and said nothing. I was just too embarrassed.
Isn't there some way to ensure that random factors are really
random? Someone will eventually come up with a convenient and
appropriate computerized random number generator like they have on
calculators.


Anyway, what does one do in this situation? I don't mind my little
hoplites being ridden down by El or SHK, but it does peeve me when
people think they need to manufacture a +2 or +3 to boot.



Greek

[Ewan McNay]

I'm intending to buy a dice tower (device where the dice are
droppped in top and bounce off several surfaces before coming to
rest at bottom) for the boardgaming event this summer. That
should solve any problem there.

As for the amazing shenanigans you describe - well, I would have
thought that simply commenting on it loudly enough to draw
attention from the neighbouring tables would be enough, actually,
but otherwise I would definitely ask the ump to just happen to
observe the next few dice rolls at your table. If that causes
your op to vary method of 'rolling' - well, then just ask why
he's changed.

I think there has to be some confrontation at some stage, though.
Given your careful description - "didn't seem to understand
the concept or purpose of generating a random factor" - I don't
doubt that you possess sufficient tact .



hrisikos8 wrote:

> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
> wrote:
>
>>>I note on the BHGS webpage that one of their international team
>>
>>just got found to be using loaded dice. I'm pretty (80%?) sure
>>that this happened against me in one tournament, too, but that
>>was more than ten years ago.
>>
>>I can't think of anything else that I've seen that would cause me
>>to ban someone.
>
>
> I thought about whether or not to follow this up and decided to do
> so. I just have to get this off my chest and ask what the rest of
> you would do inthese type of situations.
>
> I don't remember when or where, but I've definitely had opponents
> who didn't seem to understand the concept or purpose of generating a
> random factor. One guy, for every important roll, would hold his
> rolling hand palm up and place the dice in it in a very specific
> configuration (like up 4) and then very carefully and gently flip
> them like one would a pancake. It was miraculous how well that guy
> rolled when he had to.
>
> For a while I thought requiring dice cups would put the kibosh on
> this sort of behavior, until I saw a guy using a cup the same way.
> He would carefully arrange the dice in the cup and than carefully
> and quickly turn the mouth of the cup directly on to the tabletop,
> trapping the dice within. Remove the cup and voila: the dice were as
> he liked, reverse sides up from the way he had placed them in the
> cup.
>
> I, of course, did and said nothing. I was just too embarrassed.
> Isn't there some way to ensure that random factors are really
> random? Someone will eventually come up with a convenient and
> appropriate computerized random number generator like they have on
> calculators.
>
>
> Anyway, what does one do in this situation? I don't mind my little
> hoplites being ridden down by El or SHK, but it does peeve me when
> people think they need to manufacture a +2 or +3 to boot.
>
>
>
> Greek
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[scott holder]

For a while I thought requiring dice cups would put the kibosh on
this sort of behavior, until I saw a guy using a cup the same way.
He would carefully arrange the dice in the cup and than carefully
and quickly turn the mouth of the cup directly on to the tabletop,
trapping the dice within. Remove the cup and voila: the dice were as
he liked, reverse sides up from the way he had placed them in the
cup. I, of course, did and said nothing. I was just too embarrassed.
Isn't there some way to ensure that random factors are really
random? Someone will eventually come up with a convenient and
appropriate computerized random number generator like they have on
calculators. Anyway, what does one do in this situation? I don't mind my little
hoplites being ridden down by El or SHK, but it does peeve me when
people think they need to manufacture a +2 or +3 to boot.

>Yes. The tourney organizer states to everybody up front (let's assume you're
using a dice cup), that dice will be shaken enthusiastically and tossed the same
way. I see what Bill describes waaaaaaay too often, even today. It bothers me
to no end. Players should shake dice then toss them in what is clearly a random
manner. Anything short of that shouldn't be allowed. I'll make a mental note
to myself to ensure that gets said up front at Hcon.

>Remember the game Trouble? I still have my copy. The "popamatic" die roller
pretty much ensures the player can't palm dice and crap like that.

scott

Well, now doesn’t that fall into the “very lame” category.

I have had the very good fortune to not have that kind of opponent in any
era of gaming that I play – except Napoleonics. Fortunately that was only
one person and he was a friend so when he got himself worked up, I just
stopped the game for a while and we drank a beer or something. My opponents
in any tournaments have been above board in their gaming except in very few
cases having a big mouth.

Scott A McCoppin, AIA
mccoppinarchitecture, pa
704.560.4154

-----Original Message-----
From: hrisikos8 [mailto:hrisikos@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 11:51 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Dice flinging

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
>
>> I note on the BHGS webpage that one of their international team
> just got found to be using loaded dice. I'm pretty (80%?) sure
> that this happened against me in one tournament, too, but that
> was more than ten years ago.
>
> I can't think of anything else that I've seen that would cause me
> to ban someone.

I thought about whether or not to follow this up and decided to do
so. I just have to get this off my chest and ask what the rest of
you would do inthese type of situations.

I don't remember when or where, but I've definitely had opponents
who didn't seem to understand the concept or purpose of generating a
random factor. One guy, for every important roll, would hold his
rolling hand palm up and place the dice in it in a very specific
configuration (like up 4) and then very carefully and gently flip
them like one would a pancake. It was miraculous how well that guy
rolled when he had to.

For a while I thought requiring dice cups would put the kibosh on
this sort of behavior, until I saw a guy using a cup the same way.
He would carefully arrange the dice in the cup and than carefully
and quickly turn the mouth of the cup directly on to the tabletop,
trapping the dice within. Remove the cup and voila: the dice were as
he liked, reverse sides up from the way he had placed them in the
cup.

I, of course, did and said nothing. I was just too embarrassed.
Isn't there some way to ensure that random factors are really
random? Someone will eventually come up with a convenient and
appropriate computerized random number generator like they have on
calculators.


Anyway, what does one do in this situation? I don't mind my little
hoplites being ridden down by El or SHK, but it does peeve me when
people think they need to manufacture a +2 or +3 to boot.



Greek




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/26/2004 11:50:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hrisikos@... writes:

> One guy, for every important roll, would hold his
> rolling hand palm up and place the dice in it in a very specific
> configuration (like up 4) and then very carefully and
> gently flip
> them like one would a pancake.>>

Yes, I know of guys like this. I only play them in comps when we are matched as
I would never vo,untarlity play with someone like this, and when i do, I can get
them to stoip for the duration of our game.

It is the habitual problem children we don't address as fully as maybe we
should.

J

[scott holder]

I'm intending to buy a dice tower (device where the dice are
droppped in top and bounce off several surfaces before coming to
rest at bottom) for the boardgaming event this summer. That
should solve any problem there.

>Can you point me to some examples of this? Might be something to be built or
purchased in quantities and "made available" (ie force players to use it) at the
East cons.

scott

[Todd Schneider]

Theres lots of examples out there.

Google "Dice Tower" and you can see more than a few.

Todd

--- "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
I'm intending to buy a dice tower (device where the
dice are
droppped in top and bounce off several surfaces before
coming to
rest at bottom) for the boardgaming event this summer.
That
should solve any problem there.

>Can you point me to some examples of this? Might be
something to be built or purchased in quantities and
"made available" (ie force players to use it) at the
East cons.

scott

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[Ewan McNay]

See for instance:

http://www.funagain.com/cgi-bin/funagain/14747

http://home.pcisys.net/~hinj/boot.htm

or http://www.thewargamer.com/DiceTower.pdf for a more expensive
(and cooler!) option

Holder, Scott wrote:

> I'm intending to buy a dice tower (device where the dice are
> droppped in top and bounce off several surfaces before coming to
> rest at bottom) for the boardgaming event this summer. That
> should solve any problem there.
>
>
>>Can you point me to some examples of this? Might be something to be built or
purchased in quantities and "made available" (ie force players to use it) at the
East cons.
>
>
> scott
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Schneider
<thresh1642@s...> wrote:
> Theres lots of examples out there.
>
> Google "Dice Tower" and you can see more than a few.
>
> Todd
>


I did this and the results were fascinating. They're actually pretty
cool looking devices that could easily be customized in all sorts of
ways (on the outside) to make them look like something relevant to
the game (like if you were playing Mycenaeans, you could dress it up
to look like a Trojan horse). Call me Greek, but I would still be a
little bit wary of the possibility someone might figure a way to
customize the INSIDE, and perpetuate the problem we're trying to
solve. Then again, maybe not. I've never seen these things in
action, but it might be a step in the right direction.



Greek

[scott holder]

Call me Greek, but I would still be a
little bit wary of the possibility someone might figure a way to
customize the INSIDE, and perpetuate the problem we're trying to
solve. Then again, maybe not.

>Definitely NOT if the tourney organizer provided the towers.

scott

[Ewan McNay]

Holder, Scott wrote:

> Call me Greek, but I would still be a
> little bit wary of the possibility someone might figure a way to
> customize the INSIDE, and perpetuate the problem we're trying to
> solve. Then again, maybe not.
>
>
>>Definitely NOT if the tourney organizer provided the towers.

OK - sure, that would be cool. But assume we're talkiing H'Con
here, and 50-60 Warrior folks show up. That's 30 towers or at
least $300 (unless someoone makes them).

Given the ultra-low-scale money in the hobby, is this worthwhile?
I know Scott just said he's seen this stuff going on - but I
haven't, so am I being naive or just lucky or what? :)

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Holder, Scott"
<Scott.Holder@f...> wrote:
> Call me Greek, but I would still be a
> little bit wary of the possibility someone might figure a way to
> customize the INSIDE, and perpetuate the problem we're trying to
> solve. Then again, maybe not.
>
> >Definitely NOT if the tourney organizer provided the towers.
>
> scott


Hmmm. Good point. Good point.


Greek

[Chris Bump]

I, of course, did and said nothing. I was just too embarrassed.
Isn't there some way to ensure that random factors are really
random?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don Coon, who understands randomization as well as any Probability and Statistic
Professor I ever had has two ideas. First he uses what he calls an action die.
This is a die whose number is irrelevant but whose job it is when he rolls to
bounce the other dice around. This works well and ensures plenty of movement for
his dice. His other thought is a list. We haven't tried this, but have
bantered it around.

Basically each player would make a list of all die combinations from +4 to -4,
with the appropriate number of itterations, ie there is only one +4 on the list,
but there are 6 +0's. The idea being that when it came time to roll dice the
player would secretly select one of said combinations from his list and then
cross it off. Both players would simultaneously display their choice and the
battle would be resolved. He would have to use all combinations before being
able to start new on the list. This process ensures complete averaging of dice
and ensures that with enough dropping of dice everyone will roll a -3 or -4 if
using the irregular die combination. Equally it ensures a +3 or +4 for
everyone. You get to decide when you really need an up roll or can absorb a
down roll. Not my particular cup of tea,smacks too much of Kriegspiel. I like
truly not knowing how each action is going to turn out but then we purposely did
not find out the sex of our twin babies until they were born and had a weekly
ultasound for the last 4mos of pregnancy. There is no question though that this
is the most logical and fair way to ensure complete randomization. I just
happen to like the notion..."that for want of a nail the war was lost" I think
that the guy who has a day of more downs than up represents such events.
Equally the guy who has more ups than downs has a particularly inspired army
that day. Harder to simulate those type of events when everyone is going to
have the same batch of die rolls.

AS far as what the opponents you described were doing, I call it cheating,
whether the rules prohibit or not.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: hrisikos8
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 10:50 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Dice flinging


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
>
>> I note on the BHGS webpage that one of their international team
> just got found to be using loaded dice. I'm pretty (80%?) sure
> that this happened against me in one tournament, too, but that
> was more than ten years ago.
>
> I can't think of anything else that I've seen that would cause me
> to ban someone.

I thought about whether or not to follow this up and decided to do
so. I just have to get this off my chest and ask what the rest of
you would do inthese type of situations.

I don't remember when or where, but I've definitely had opponents
who didn't seem to understand the concept or purpose of generating a
random factor. One guy, for every important roll, would hold his
rolling hand palm up and place the dice in it in a very specific
configuration (like up 4) and then very carefully and gently flip
them like one would a pancake. It was miraculous how well that guy
rolled when he had to.

For a while I thought requiring dice cups would put the kibosh on
this sort of behavior, until I saw a guy using a cup the same way.
He would carefully arrange the dice in the cup and than carefully
and quickly turn the mouth of the cup directly on to the tabletop,
trapping the dice within. Remove the cup and voila: the dice were as
he liked, reverse sides up from the way he had placed them in the
cup.

I, of course, did and said nothing. I was just too embarrassed.
Isn't there some way to ensure that random factors are really
random? Someone will eventually come up with a convenient and
appropriate computerized random number generator like they have on
calculators.


Anyway, what does one do in this situation? I don't mind my little
hoplites being ridden down by El or SHK, but it does peeve me when
people think they need to manufacture a +2 or +3 to boot.



Greek


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ADVERTISEMENT





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

So I guess I'm going to be the contrarian voice here.

In roughly 20 years of tournament miniatures play, I've had one, maybe two games
where I had a suspicion that my opponent might be using loaded dice. And I've
never had anyone attempt to manually manipulate the roll as has been described
here. During that time I've played in the NICT half a dozen times, and played
in about half the Cold Wars doubles tourneys. So I've put in my share of "big"
tournament gaming. The one or two incidents I do recall were easily more than
10 years ago (and both happened in Pennsylvania).

So maybe I'm naive, or just lucky, but I have no perception of a problem here.
And I'm opposed to an "institutional" solution like issuing dice towers to
everyone for use during the NICT.

The reason I'm opposed is I think that such moves create a really bad (and
inaccurate) impression of our hobby and our sportsmanship to casual outside
observers. And casual outside observers are the future Warrior players we want
to encourage and recruit, not discourage and intimidate. To me, that imperative
to project an inviting image to outsiders trumps whatever level of problem
people think we might have now.

The best policing mechanism we can have is to be gentlemen and good sports. That
doesn't mean you can't be direct about a perceived problem. But I think we'll
accomplish more by shaming cheaters with our own good behavior than by
draconian measures to prevent bad behavior.

A couple of specifics, though:

(1) I think the loaded dice problem is a moot point. I had an opponent some
years ago in the NICT (not someone I knew), who brought no dice to the
tournament. He explained, very politely at the beginning of the game, that it
was simply his policy to use the same dice as his opponent. I thought he was
being overly paranoid, but I wasn't offended, and we had a very pleasant game.
So I think in general anyone should feel free to share dice with an opponent,
and any opponent who believes he has fair dice should not be offended by such a
request.

(2) I almost objected to the proposal to write orders down on cards to be
revealed later in the game, for similar reasons as I've outlined above --
namely that it might project the idea to outsiders that we don't trust each
other. I think orders is a different situation, however. First, I think that
many players, even experienced players, don't actually understand the
requirements of orders as well as we think we do. Second, I think that in the
"heat of battle" it is all too easy to simply overlook the requirements of
orders, not through any intent to cheat but just through a lack of attention.
In other words, I think what we have with orders is more a case of bad habits
than bad intentions. If the cards help us correct those habits, then that's a
good thing.


-Mark Stone

[scott holder]

OK - sure, that would be cool. But assume we're talkiing H'Con
here, and 50-60 Warrior folks show up. That's 30 towers or at
least $300 (unless someoone makes them).
Given the ultra-low-scale money in the hobby, is this worthwhile?
I know Scott just said he's seen this stuff going on - but I
haven't, so am I being naive or just lucky or what? :)

>I agree......and don't. There are three consistent complaints I get over the
years on this game:

1) Orders. And the orders form we used at CTA worked GREAT!

2) Time. Too fast, too slow, there is *no* consensus on this despite what Jon
thinks:):)

3) Dice. People complain about dice with faded spots that get "pulled" from the
table too fast for the opponent to read them. People complain about what
started this thread, the whole "palming" or otherwise fiddling with the dice
routine. Not to mention how different players deal with dice that get cocked
(roll em both again, just roll the one again, etc) or rolled off the table.

Therefore, since we've tried something with Orders that seems to have potential,
dice is also something else we can control. I'll start by looking into this but
if anybody out there can work this in parallel (you know someone who's heavily
into woodworking for example) and we can potentially make a slew of these and
store em somewhere (for the East shows I can usually give em to Ed Bernhart).

scott