Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Recruit Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 28

Group,

A question I have and have debated a lot with my teams partner
Jevon Garret, is the use of generals. I think this is a topic
that can help people putting a list together and I could
benefit from others views as well.

My view is this:

1) If you have a general, put it into unit a as the +1
at first contact or +1 always if CinC or Ally is well worth
the points (this plus only applies to negative rolls, does not
add to 0 or positives). That means that a general with Reg A
or Reg B will almost never be minus, and if is (-5+2+2= -1)
has more to worry about than loosing a combat (being
wounded/killed etc.). For irregulars you could go -1 or -2,
but again there are more worries. This can also be crucial
when with Irr A's (such as Normans).

2) I usually put my general in the best unit, in the largest
pike block for Swiss or in the knight unit otherwise, if
posible always a regular knight unit.

3) The generals unit is almost always the first unit comitted,
in the Swiss because you can't have a 325 point unit sitting
arround doing nothing (The unit is 12 stands, front rank HI,
last rank THCT. Unlike Todd K, I go three wide with three
ranks of pike, one of THCT. This large unit is resilient to
missle fire, etc, but a chunk of points). With knights because
I tend to play (and like) reg Cavalry.

4) I realize the negative of 2d5 for fighting on all prompts,
but I usually have any capable units going into contact/in
contact when my general charges, the rest are either LI/LC or
D's that will never be prompted.

I guess I wonder about the following issues:

1) When do people decide to use a single element versus a unit.
The cost of knights perclude (in my mind) having it sit out
there with nothing to do and if you have to rally troops, the
most important reason for a single element, I believe you
usually have more porblems than a single unit.
For the Swiss, hardly ever being negative is key, given how
brittle they can be. Plus geiven an 11 element unit (or 9 in
Todd's case) could not be legally fielded.

2) What kind of units would a general never be put in (I
realize this is becoming more obsolete with the new lists as
this is more defined). i.e. would you put it with Reg C
Knights? How about ir D knights (probably can't anymore, but
Communal Italians and 100 Year War could do this). I am also
curious about elephants (or any), as the general can suck up
the irr command cost but it certainly limits the roles. Would
people ever put the general in a large group (like I do with
Swiss) or do people believe this is a mistake, since they
can't staff move, etc. Would you keep it in a 2 element unit
(pertaining mostly to foot such as Aztec, Vikings, etc.) where
you will have little/no effect on the battle?

3) When would most toss a general into combat? This is the
biggest argument Jevon and I have had over the years,
espcially when it comes to the CinC. I believe if an
oppurtunity is present, take it to try and blow open the game,
even if early. Jevon (I think I represent him correctly)
believes the generals (especially the CinC) should be saved
until the final round or two.

4) How do people assign commands? A subtle point, but an
important one. My CinC always has the important troops
assigned to him. The reason, I have been frustrated by forced
orders, such that my D's will have to be prompted, my LC/LI
cannot cross the table center, my knight reserve can't do
anything, etc. Of course, this means the CinC is almost always
the first general commited, espcially if I have Cautious or
Unreliable generals.

5) If given an uneven amount of units, how do people assign.
For example with three genenrals and 16 units, including his
own, I go 5, 5, and 6, liking balance. Would others go 10, 3,
and 3?

6) Do people use the advancing army standard for eagerness, but
don't ever charge? Agian I figure if you are in tactical range
(<240) you better be ready to go in. This effects armies that
rely on peasents or pilgrims or conquered poeples (Ir D, LMI,
JLS, etc) to kill elephants and deal with pike. Usually
Tuetonics, Crusaders and French are covered. I especially
would like input about when using French, as you can't expect
to get out of the way.

And on an unrelated note, when does a generals PA, P, or PAS go
down and others have to take a waver test? Whenever the unit
routs or only when a general is wounded/killed. I have seen
this played both ways over the years and was wondering when it
was (Jon I know this is likely in the book, but I haven't come
across it recently and it the answer could be educational).

Sean

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 7/11/2003 16:53:52 Central Daylight Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

> Staff moves are usually irrelevant.

A general in a unit staff moving can be decisive. The staff move is the
'free-est' move in the game and comes after all other actions that turn have
passed. That C or K unit out there that was out of range for next bound's
charges
is suddenly right in your face....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

> 1) When do people decide to use a single element versus a unit.>>

I use a single element CINC to choose a D unit and make him an A and also to
recover troops. Single element generals have huge advantages and that is always
my starting position - I only use them as fighters to cover an unpleasant
minimum.

> 3) When would most toss a general into combat? This is the
> biggest argument Jevon and I have had over the years,
> espcially when it comes to the CinC. I believe if an
> oppurtunity is present, take it to try and blow open the game,> even if early.
Jevon (I think I represent him correctly)
> believes the generals (especially the CinC) should be saved
> until the final round or two.>>

I think they are best used joining the unit that would most benefit from their
abilities. See Mark Stone's joining a dismounted SHK general to a Breton unit
and killing a pike block.
I agree with Jevon that this should happen at the correct late game point.

4) How do people assign commands? >>

Typically badly. For some reason many players standardize their commands before
even seeing the ground. I find it impossible to talk about command structure
without knowing the terrain (and to a lesser exten, opponent). I use my command
structure to apply the right amount of fixing force to the part of the enemy I
don't want to fight and the mass of kill troops against the part of his army I
do.

> 5) If given an uneven amount of units, how do people assign.
> For example with three genenrals and 16 units, including his
> own, I go 5, 5, and 6, liking balance. Would others go 10, 3,
> and 3?>>

With no other info: 9 and 7 with a no-command CINC, but again, without seeing
the terrain, no way to really answer.

> 6) Do people use the advancing army standard for eagerness, but
> don't ever charge?>>

I do all the time. Keeps my Reg B's eager and, when the gen is a chariot or
elephant, also causes unease...

> And on an unrelated note, when does a generals PA, P, or PAS go down and
others have to take a waver test?>>

"Lost Standards. A general's personal standard is lost when he is killed or
destroyed." (10.4) Killed is described in 10.4, destroyed is in 5.24 and the
waver test itself is in 5.52.

For standards not attached to a P standard (e.g. just an S on a transport
element), it has to be destroyed. This waver is not taken for 'broken
standards' only as you are still in possession of them.

<<(Jon I know this is likely in the book, but I haven't
> come across it recently and it the answer could be educational).>>

I am here to help....lol

J

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Comments below ...

> 1) If you have a general, put it into unit a as the +1 
> at first contact or +1 always if CinC or Ally is well worth 
> the points (this plus only applies to negative rolls, does not 
> add to 0 or positives). That means that a general with Reg A 
> or Reg B will almost never be minus, and if is (-5+2+2= -1) 
> has more to worry about than loosing a combat (being 
> wounded/killed etc.). For irregulars you could go -1 or -2, 
> but again there are more worries. This can also be crucial 
> when with Irr A's (such as Normans).

<<<GREG>>> I feel that the general as part of a unit is the way to go, for
exactly the reasons you outlined. Also as a lover of medieval armies, I find
this the most historical. The staff element move with a two element body
including a general can at times be the most impactful move in the game,
especially if you are buying quite a few generals and they are with something
like knights.

> 3) The generals unit is almost always the first unit
comitted, 
> in the Swiss because you can't have a 325 point unit sitting 
> arround doing nothing (The unit is 12 stands, front rank HI, 
> last rank THCT. Unlike Todd K, I go three wide with three 
> ranks of pike, one of THCT. This large unit is resilient to 
> missle fire, etc, but a chunk of points). With knights because 
> I tend to play (and like) reg Cavalry. 

<<<GREG>>> Rather than have him be the first committed, my goal is always to
have him be the best committed, meaning that I will gladly move him forward in
harms way early or late, as long as it is the right thing to do and fits best
risk v. gain. There are many caviats to this thinking though. I tend to be a
shooting/trapping player in about a third of my games (especially bad army
matchups) and in that instance the decision to use, or not to use your general
becomes more a matter of longer term goals - did I get a huge win in the last
game, and can live with a smaller one now ... do I need a huge win in this
game ... am I more concerned with not getting bushwacked. All of this, to me,
is more inportant than set rules about when to commit your generals.

> 4) I realize the negative of 2d5 for fighting on all
prompts, 
> but I usually have any capable units going into contact/in 
> contact when my general charges, the rest are either LI/LC or 
> D's that will never be prompted. 

<<<GREG>>> This is my biggest weakness as a player. I tend to not get my orders
right, far too often and find myself having to a)change them ... or b)do quite
a bit of prompting. I buy lots of generals, which usually covers this weakness.
As a result, even double dice issues, are usually not an issue.

> I guess I wonder about the following issues: 
> 
> 1) When do people decide to use a single element versus a
unit. 
> The cost of knights perclude (in my mind) having it sit out 
> there with nothing to do and if you have to rally troops, the 
> most important reason for a single element, I believe you 
> usually have more porblems than a single unit. 
> For the Swiss, hardly ever being negative is key, given how 
> brittle they can be. Plus geiven an 11 element unit (or 9 in 
> Todd's case) could not be legally fielded. 
> 
> 2) What kind of units would a general never be put in
(I 
> realize this is becoming more obsolete with the new lists as 
> this is more defined). i.e. would you put it with Reg C 
> Knights? How about ir D knights (probably can't anymore, but 
> Communal Italians and 100 Year War could do this). I am also 
> curious about elephants (or any), as the general can suck up 
> the irr command cost but it certainly limits the roles. Would 
> people ever put the general in a large group (like I do with 
> Swiss) or do people believe this is a mistake, since they 
> can't staff move, etc. Would you keep it in a 2 element unit 
> (pertaining mostly to foot such as Aztec, Vikings, etc.) where 
> you will have little/no effect on the battle? 

> 3) When would most toss a general into combat? This is
the 
> biggest argument Jevon and I have had over the years, 
> espcially when it comes to the CinC. I believe if an 
> oppurtunity is present, take it to try and blow open the game, 
> even if early. Jevon (I think I represent him correctly) 
> believes the generals (especially the CinC) should be saved 
> until the final round or two. 

<<<GREG>>> The obvious answer is, weather a single element general that will
join a body, or as a unit, the time and place to use your generals has nothing
to do with the time period of the game, and much more to do with the outcome
you desire. I think this answer, for me, is the same answer that I gave to
question 3 above. If it looks great in bound 2, then use him then. If it looks
great in bound 10, that will be your choice. Over all that, you need to have
battlefield goals and make sure you use of generals fits into these goals.

> 4) How do people assign commands? A subtle point, but
an 
> important one. My CinC always has the important troops 
> assigned to him. The reason, I have been frustrated by forced 
> orders, such that my D's will have to be prompted, my LC/LI 
> cannot cross the table center, my knight reserve can't do 
> anything, etc. Of course, this means the CinC is almost always 
> the first general commited, espcially if I have Cautious or 
> Unreliable generals. 

<<<GREG>>> This is an easy one for me. I buy a wide variety of stuff when I
build a list ... I do not like armies that rely overly on any one thing to win
the game. I tend to look at the enemy army, and see what he has that might be
weak against something that I have, and organize one or two commands optimized
with these "best matchup" troops. When we deploy I will place my "jerk around"
commands first, and see where he puts his good stuff, meaning good for me, ha-
ha! With any luck, he is playing with only two generals and I will get to place
a command or two after he is already down. KEY to this strategy is domination
of the skirmish game, and having skirmishers that shoot at long range. It does
you no good to have a deployment advantage, if you don't have enough
skirmishers to throw his skirmishers back in his face. If you don't, he will
just use his space to get the matchups going back his way, and then your fancy
strategy will actually be work in reverse, against you. This strategy is not
full-proof by any means, and that plays into command organization also.
Your 'jerk around' commands should include units that can at least fight for
any terrain present. This will help you out if you botch it completely, as it
is difficult to just attack past and in close proximity to terrain that still
contains a strong enemy presence.

> 
> 5) If given an uneven amount of units, how do people
assign. 
> For example with three genenrals and 16 units, including his 
> own, I go 5, 5, and 6, liking balance. Would others go 10, 3, 
> and 3? 

<<<GREG>>> In general "jerk around" commands are larger, and exploitation shock
commands are smaller.

> 6) Do people use the advancing army standard for eagerness,
but 
> don't ever charge? Agian I figure if you are in tactical range 
> (<240) you better be ready to go in. This effects armies that 
> rely on peasents or pilgrims or conquered poeples (Ir D, LMI, 
> JLS, etc) to kill elephants and deal with pike. Usually 
> Tuetonics, Crusaders and French are covered. I especially 
> would like input about when using French, as you can't expect 
> to get out of the way. 

<<<Greg>>> Yes, as long as this fits into the overall scheme. If units are
vital and the eagerness would help, by all means use it, but if there are
bigger fish to fry, just do your thing and hope you roll well ...
;-)

Ewan McNay · Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Digest Number 970

Hi Sean. This is going to be a very agreeable reply - we seem to have
similar views.

> 1) If you have a general, put it into unit a as the +1
> at first contact or +1 always if CinC or Ally is well worth
> the points (this plus only applies to negative rolls, does not
> add to 0 or positives). That means that a general with Reg A
> or Reg B will almost never be minus, and if is (-5+2+2= -1)
> has more to worry about than loosing a combat (being
> wounded/killed etc.). For irregulars you could go -1 or -2,
> but again there are more worries. This can also be crucial
> when with Irr A's (such as Normans).

Agree. Plus you gain the free command points; even more valuable with
irregular generals.

> 2) I usually put my general in the best unit, in the largest
> pike block for Swiss or in the knight unit otherwise, if
> posible always a regular knight unit.

Agree again. My Later Imperialist subgenerals are all with regular (C
class) generals, to allow for self-induced impetuosity.

> 3) The generals unit is almost always the first unit comitted,
> in the Swiss because you can't have a 325 point unit sitting
> arround doing nothing (The unit is 12 stands, front rank HI,
> last rank THCT. Unlike Todd K, I go three wide with three
> ranks of pike, one of THCT. This large unit is resilient to
> missle fire, etc, but a chunk of points). With knights because
> I tend to play (and like) reg Cavalry.

This is not necessarily the case; when I play knights, there are lots
of generals so one or more of them is likely to go in. It seems to be
the CinC more often than I would choose, but if he happens to be on
the spot then in he goes. With my Seleucids, I violate almost all of
the above rules, but that's because the generals troop type is
(relatively) useless and so I am reluctant to 'waste' any more points
on them; and if he's not with a unit, he's unlikely to charge. My
Seleucid generals are essentially a waste of space, actually, but
they still get paid Smile

.

> 4) I realize the negative of 2d5 for fighting on all prompts,
> but I usually have any capable units going into contact/in
> contact when my general charges, the rest are either LI/LC or
> D's that will never be prompted.

If I am doing things right, my troops should have appropriate orders
and not need too many prompts. Again, less of an issue in knight
armies where the generals often command only themselves; a nonissue
for Seleucids. Gonna be a big issue if I play an El army in the NICT,
because my generals will be heading for combat as fast as possible,
and may well have support troops who need prompts; those support
troops will be regular, though, so shouldn't be too traumatic.

> I guess I wonder about the following issues:
>
> 1) When do people decide to use a single element versus a
unit.
> The cost of knights perclude (in my mind) having it sit out
> there with nothing to do and if you have to rally troops, the
> most important reason for a single element, I believe you
> usually have more porblems than a single unit.
> For the Swiss, hardly ever being negative is key, given how
> brittle they can be. Plus geiven an 11 element unit (or 9 in
> Todd's case) could not be legally fielded.

See above. I also would not take (usually) an Irr LMI CinC in a
fighting unit unless very large - they explode too easily.
Subgenerals are expendable and don't carry A standards Smile

. I agree
with your comments.

> 2) What kind of units would a general never be put in (I
> realize this is becoming more obsolete with the new lists as
> this is more defined). i.e. would you put it with Reg C
> Knights? How about ir D knights (probably can't anymore, but
> Communal Italians and 100 Year War could do this). I am also
> curious about elephants (or any), as the general can suck up
> the irr command cost but it certainly limits the roles. Would
> people ever put the general in a large group (like I do with
> Swiss) or do people believe this is a mistake, since they
> can't staff move, etc. Would you keep it in a 2 element unit
> (pertaining mostly to foot such as Aztec, Vikings, etc.) where
> you will have little/no effect on the battle?

A 'free' elephant and command factor is a great deal, in my view, and
I really really like elephant generals. Especially against non-bow
opponents Smile

. Staff moves are usually irrelevant. As long as the
foot is fairly resistant (e.g. Rus) I would have the general in the
front rank; having said that, my prefeudal Scot generals used to be on
single LC elements. Having a general who can join any one of several
units can be helpful, though you have to be careful that his doing so
doesn't weaken the unit (e.g. by making more vulnerable to bowfire).

> 3) When would most toss a general into combat? This is the
> biggest argument Jevon and I have had over the years,
> espcially when it comes to the CinC. I believe if an
> oppurtunity is present, take it to try and blow open the game,
> even if early. Jevon (I think I represent him correctly)
> believes the generals (especially the CinC) should be saved
> until the final round or two.

I'm with you.

> 4) How do people assign commands? A subtle point, but an
> important one. My CinC always has the important troops
> assigned to him. The reason, I have been frustrated by forced
> orders, such that my D's will have to be prompted, my LC/LI
> cannot cross the table center, my knight reserve can't do
> anything, etc. Of course, this means the CinC is almost always
> the first general commited, espcially if I have Cautious or
> Unreliable generals.

I haven't played Warrior enough (vs. 7th, with different command-break
rules) to be good at this yet. Don't know. Probably lots of 1-2 unit
commands. I basically try to split any prompting thatI think might be
necessary, but never worry about generals not following orders.

E

Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1373

sean,
Let me preface my remarks by pointing out that I'm somewhat insane. I'll answer
a few of you questions very quickly. I play Normans, and have most often since
I ditch Alex Imps in 1990. I run balls to the wall with each HC having a sub
with a command of 1 unit (his own) thus I have a IrrgA unit with some IrrgB +
feelings. I typically put everyone else in the CNC command and let the CNC with
his 2E IrrgA sit until the schwerpunkt is complete. Again, I like to ram home
all the HC at once and roll up, but since this is a win all or die tactic, the
CNC is quick to follow up the initial hit. Typically, again, the HC that do not
rout on contact will push the enemy back and my only hope is to do massive
damage before the counterstroke whipes the HC out. This is at 1600pt.

Now at 1200pt I'm a different player. I'm focusing on patients and running the
CNC as a single element to intercept routers soley. I push everyone else in the
one SubG command. Since my orders are attack and my only trick pony is IrrgA
HC, it is easy to disregard prompting unless something needs the attention of
the LHI or someone needs to march across the rear of my lines to reenforce the
other flank. Again, screaming in with the HC is the essential 5 minutes of any
game with the Normans. I roll up they rout, I roll down I rout. the difference
is now my CNC is there to stop the rout. Hey, half points for shaken is better
than full points for destroyed. Now if I can only find a way to keep the C MI
from shaking or being uneasy :)

I find that with the single element, the staff move is key. It allows you to
move your CNC interceptor after all other movement, thus the enemy has less
information about where you are attacking or why you are putting him where you
are. I personally just wish my CNC was LC so he could launch across the board
faster.

Hey don't laugh, I've won more than I've lost, I just don't win big tournaments
where mucho El and mass Bowmen abound.
Wanax
sscott04@... wrote:
Group,

A question I have and have debated a lot with my teams partner
Jevon Garret, is the use of generals. I think this is a topic
that can help people putting a list together and I could
benefit from others views as well.

My view is this:

1) If you have a general, put it into unit a as the +1
at first contact or +1 always if CinC or Ally is well worth
the points (this plus only applies to negative rolls, does not
add to 0 or positives). That means that a general with Reg A
or Reg B will almost never be minus, and if is (-5+2+2= -1)
has more to worry about than loosing a combat (being
wounded/killed etc.). For irregulars you could go -1 or -2,
but again there are more worries. This can also be crucial
when with Irr A's (such as Normans).

2) I usually put my general in the best unit, in the largest
pike block for Swiss or in the knight unit otherwise, if
posible always a regular knight unit.

3) The generals unit is almost always the first unit comitted,
in the Swiss because you can't have a 325 point unit sitting
arround doing nothing (The unit is 12 stands, front rank HI,
last rank THCT. Unlike Todd K, I go three wide with three
ranks of pike, one of THCT. This large unit is resilient to
missle fire, etc, but a chunk of points). With knights because
I tend to play (and like) reg Cavalry.

4) I realize the negative of 2d5 for fighting on all prompts,
but I usually have any capable units going into contact/in
contact when my general charges, the rest are either LI/LC or
D's that will never be prompted.

I guess I wonder about the following issues:

1) When do people decide to use a single element versus a unit.
The cost of knights perclude (in my mind) having it sit out
there with nothing to do and if you have to rally troops, the
most important reason for a single element, I believe you
usually have more porblems than a single unit.
For the Swiss, hardly ever being negative is key, given how
brittle they can be. Plus geiven an 11 element unit (or 9 in
Todd's case) could not be legally fielded.

2) What kind of units would a general never be put in (I
realize this is becoming more obsolete with the new lists as
this is more defined). i.e. would you put it with Reg C
Knights? How about ir D knights (probably can't anymore, but
Communal Italians and 100 Year War could do this). I am also
curious about elephants (or any), as the general can suck up
the irr command cost but it certainly limits the roles. Would
people ever put the general in a large group (like I do with
Swiss) or do people believe this is a mistake, since they
can't staff move, etc. Would you keep it in a 2 element unit
(pertaining mostly to foot such as Aztec, Vikings, etc.) where
you will have little/no effect on the battle?

3) When would most toss a general into combat? This is the
biggest argument Jevon and I have had over the years,
espcially when it comes to the CinC. I believe if an
oppurtunity is present, take it to try and blow open the game,
even if early. Jevon (I think I represent him correctly)
believes the generals (especially the CinC) should be saved
until the final round or two.

4) How do people assign commands? A subtle point, but an
important one. My CinC always has the important troops
assigned to him. The reason, I have been frustrated by forced
orders, such that my D's will have to be prompted, my LC/LI
cannot cross the table center, my knight reserve can't do
anything, etc. Of course, this means the CinC is almost always
the first general commited, espcially if I have Cautious or
Unreliable generals.

5) If given an uneven amount of units, how do people assign.
For example with three genenrals and 16 units, including his
own, I go 5, 5, and 6, liking balance. Would others go 10, 3,
and 3?

6) Do people use the advancing army standard for eagerness, but
don't ever charge? Agian I figure if you are in tactical range
(<240) you better be ready to go in. This effects armies that
rely on peasents or pilgrims or conquered poeples (Ir D, LMI,
JLS, etc) to kill elephants and deal with pike. Usually
Tuetonics, Crusaders and French are covered. I especially
would like input about when using French, as you can't expect
to get out of the way.

And on an unrelated note, when does a generals PA, P, or PAS go
down and others have to take a waver test? Whenever the unit
routs or only when a general is wounded/killed. I have seen
this played both ways over the years and was wondering when it
was (Jon I know this is likely in the book, but I haven't come
across it recently and it the answer could be educational).

Sean

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