Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

<<1)This is both a question and a clarification. Chargers that are bow armed
shoot over head from a sec rank in support. What if they are
also eligible to fight? Can they do both when charging in?>>

Yes. But since you asked, I will take a look at the language and see if I can
make it clearer.

<<2)Second cause of disorder waver test. Do you take a waver test from being
disordered a sec time by camels.>>

Nope. Second cause has to be from combat. The combat causes of disorder are
all in 11.0.

<<3)Canceled charges. HC unit A is facing the enemy HC units B and C. Neither B
or C is starting behind the flank. B is directly to the front of A and C is
slightly angled to come in on the flank of A and
at charge declaration has the move to reach the flank. A charges impet at B. Is
his charge canceled by C who is not a target of his charge? >>

It depends. 6.165 says the charge would be canceled by a target not in or
moving into the path of A's charge. If C is not in and never comes into the
path of A's charge, then it is canceled. If A is a wide unit and/or wheels
towards B, then part of C might enter the path and therefore not cancel the
charge. In fact, I am working on the diagrams for this right now.

This is a very situational question and depends as much on the size of the units
as it does on their exact relative positions. I will take a .jpg diagram if you
send one and tell you the deal with that particular situation.

<<If so is he still eligable to counter charge both units and wheel to prevent
the flank charge there by canceling C charge as B will take
the front and C will not fit?>>

The above ? is WAY too situational. Send me a picture and include unit sizes.

Jon

[joncleaves]

<< I stated at the end of the paragraph that all units were 6 figure 2 ranks
deep. To further clarify that also means that they are 1 element wide.>>

Oops, must have missed that. Sorry.

<< The main thrust of the situation is that flank charges are not very well
defined.>>

I concur. I am hammering at that exact section of the rules this next couple
days - with diagrams.

<< I could see many situations that will force judges
onto the battle field to decide a flank charge.>>

That we do not want. I am trying to have the rules text and diagrams eliminate
the need for a judge in most cases. However, I am not so naiive as to think I
can eliminate it altogether. Players will contrive unpredictable situations.

I would say that a one-element wide unit is going to have a very narrow charge
path and therefore is at risk of having two units charge it with one of them
canceling its charge. Like now.

<< But to tell you strait I would prefer WRG's ver. that you must start at
least partially behind the flank ...>>

That is not going to happen. Too many times a body's side can be reached by a
an enemy that is not behind the line. The plan is to reduce as much of the
confusion as possible instead.

<<Sorry to be blunt there and I hope the Flank Charges section works out.>>

Gosh, me too!

Hi all!! The small group here in Mobile, AL got our first chance to
playtest the Warrior set yesterday. We all felt the it went very well
and looked seldom at the rules and when we did for minor things it was
very easy to find the answer. It felt really good to play and not read
the whole 3 hours. We did however run into a couple of
questions/clarifications.

1)This is both a question and a clarification. Chargers that are bow
armed shoot over head from a sec rank in support. What if they are
also eligible to fight? Can they do both when charging in? the rules
seem to say they can in 8.81. on consecutive bounds of H-T-H only
figures not eligible to fight may shoot as per 8.83. Example irr LC
L,B,SH 12 figures in 2 ranks charges impet at disordered irr LMI
JVL,SH 18 figures in 2 ranks, LC in support fire gets 6 figures
shooting, however as they are lance armed they get 9 figures (6 front
and 1/2 the rear rank) fighting in hand to hand. let say they win and
push back the LMI causing sec cause of disorder the LMI makes the
shake test. Second bound of combat the LC is now other cav and only
fights front rank and rear rank is again eligible to shoot.

2)Second cause of disorder waver test. Do you take a waver test from
being disordered a sec time by camels. Example HC is disordered in
prep fire by B armed camels they decide to charge. During charge moves
they are disordered by getting within 80p of camels. Is this a combat
cause requiring a waver test because they are charging?

3)Canceled charges. HC unit A is facing the enemy HC units B and C.
Neither B or C is starting behind the flank. B is directly to the
front of A and C is slightly angled to come in on the flank of A and
at charge declaration has the move to reach the flank. A charges impet
at B. Is his charge canceled by C who is not a target of his charge?
If so is he still eligable to counter charge both units and wheel to
prevent the flank charge there by canceling C charge as B will take
the front and C will not fit? If that happens does he then get his IMP
charge back as the C unit never charged? All above units are 6 figure
and in 2 ranks. Wow hope you understand all that <grin

OK That does it for this time. And thanks ahead of time for taking the
time to answer.

[Greg Regets]

Could we then do a wrap in this instance?

JUST KIDDING .... PUT DOWN THAT KNIFE!!!!!

Greg


<<3)Canceled charges. HC unit A is facing the enemy HC units B and C.
Neither B or C is starting behind the flank. B is directly to the front of A
and C is slightly angled to come in on the flank of A and
at charge declaration has the move to reach the flank. A charges impet at B.
Is his charge canceled by C who is not a target of his charge? >>

It depends. 6.165 says the charge would be canceled by a target not in or
moving into the path of A's charge. If C is not in and never comes into the
path of A's charge, then it is canceled. If A is a wide unit and/or wheels
towards B, then part of C might enter the path and therefore not cancel the
charge. In fact, I am working on the diagrams for this right now.

This is a very situational question and depends as much on the size of the
units as it does on their exact relative positions. I will take a .jpg
diagram if you send one and tell you the deal with that particular
situation.

<<If so is he still eligable to counter charge both units and wheel to
prevent the flank charge there by canceling C charge as B will take
the front and C will not fit?>>

The above ? is WAY too situational. Send me a picture and include unit
sizes.

I stated at the end of the paragraph that all units were 6 figure 2
ranks deep. To further clarify that also means that they are 1 element
wide. The main thrust of the situation is that flank charges are not
very well defined. I could see many situations that will force judges
onto the battle field to decide a flank charge. To me that is
cumbersome and not at all what I would like to see in the game. The
less the judges have to be involved the better. It makes for more play
and less argument. Many times I have had more troops on the table
(sometimes 2-1) and have wished that I could get to a flank but just
could get to the "at least partially behind the flank". So it will be
great to finnally be able to do this and I hope it will work out. But
to tell you strait I would prefer WRG's ver. that you must start at
least partially behind the flank than have lots of confusion or during
tourny's end up with a judge at the table during every charge sequence
just to make sure the flank charges are legal . Sorry to be blunt
there and I hope the Flank Charges section works out. Ohh and the uhh
knife umm well sorry I will put it away. LOL :)

Ref #1 - If the rational is that the back rank shoots on the way in, then drops
bow to use lance, why wouldn't that apply to the front rank also?

My opinion would be that figures engaging in hand-to-hand could not support
shoot. In the example cited for a LC L, B, Sh, 3 figs would engage in H-T-H
leaving 1 to support shoot.

Roger
--

On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:23:08
JonCleaves wrote:
><<1)This is both a question and a clarification. Chargers that are bow armed
shoot over head from a sec rank in support. What if they are
>also eligible to fight? Can they do both when charging in?>>
>
>Yes. But since you asked, I will take a look at the language and see if I can
make it clearer.
>
><<2)Second cause of disorder waver test. Do you take a waver test from being
disordered a sec time by camels.>>
>
>Nope. Second cause has to be from combat. The combat causes of disorder are
all in 11.0.
>
><<3)Canceled charges. HC unit A is facing the enemy HC units B and C. Neither B
or C is starting behind the flank. B is directly to the front of A and C is
slightly angled to come in on the flank of A and
>at charge declaration has the move to reach the flank. A charges impet at B. Is
his charge canceled by C who is not a target of his charge? >>
>
>It depends. 6.165 says the charge would be canceled by a target not in or
moving into the path of A's charge. If C is not in and never comes into the
path of A's charge, then it is canceled. If A is a wide unit and/or wheels
towards B, then part of C might enter the path and therefore not cancel the
charge. In fact, I am working on the diagrams for this right now.
>
>This is a very situational question and depends as much on the size of the
units as it does on their exact relative positions. I will take a .jpg diagram
if you send one and tell you the deal with that particular situation.
>
><<If so is he still eligable to counter charge both units and wheel to prevent
the flank charge there by canceling C charge as B will take
>the front and C will not fit?>>
>
>The above ? is WAY too situational. Send me a picture and include unit sizes.
>
>Jon
>


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[joncleaves]

<< Ref #1 - If the rational is that the back rank shoots on the way in, then
drops bow to use lance, why wouldn't that apply to the front rank also? >>

That is not the rationale. The rationale is based on relative combat power
in a several hundred man body available to do a certain thing at a certain
time under certain conditions. A second element is actually four or more
'ranks' back from the front and that micro look at what is happening is
generally unuseful at this scale. At least it is rules-mechanic-wise. A
pike, for example, cannot reach over 12-15 ranks of men, but a fourth element
of P 'fights' under some conditions.

<<My opinion would be that figures engaging in hand-to-hand could not
support shoot. In the example cited for a LC L, B, Sh, 3 figs would engage in
H-T-H leaving 1 to support shoot.>>

I'm sorry if I have not been clear on where we are. We are not in the design
phase, we are in the edit phase. The 'rules' are set and have been for some
time. We are making sure they are clear to the reader. We have, for
example, heard the arguments on both sides of this particular issue (L and B
armed cav), have playtested the mechanic thoroughly and are satisfied. As
far as the basic concept of a troop with a 2d rank weapon shooting bow on a
charge, my Chinese have been doing it for years. It has apparently only come
up again for discussion due to the lack of familiarity on the part of some
with 7.6. That lack is something we are going to change by publishing a
single consolidated rulebook.

Jon