Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Garlic]

Hello,

Looking at a lot of early armies which I am interested in for purely historical
reasons. Just curious what kind of ideas/tactics people have come up with for
using the mostly Irr LMI/MI JLS Sh troop types when they are a major component
of an army.

John Garlic

[Frank Gilson]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, jmgarlic@a... wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Looking at a lot of early armies which I am interested in for
purely historical reasons. Just curious what kind of ideas/tactics
people have come up with for using the mostly Irr LMI/MI JLS Sh
troop types when they are a major component of an army.
>
> John Garlic

I'm not sure how this will be received ...but here it goes.

Irregular troops armed solely with JLS are relatively poor. They can
improve, if loose order and of high morale (B or A). Even being able
to put some A class troops in the front rank of a C class body is a
great help.

You've got some game against Elephants, but not necessarily much if
made uneasy.

Out of period, against heavier cavalry types, you have almost no
game at all if the majority of your troops are merely JLS,Sh.

Now, if your intent is to play mainly in-period historical battles,
that's fine . So, what can you do with these troops?

Close order armed with JLS,Sh need some advantage. They should be
looked at as line troops, not attack troops. Being uphill is one
great advantage they can enjoy! Defending some kind of obstacle is
another (lip of a minor water feature.)

If they can also be armed with some kind of missile weapon, that's
great. MI JLS,D,Sh or JLS,B,Sh is far far better than without those
missiles.

Irr loose order JLS,Sh troops in such ancient armies, with their
greater charge reach and impetuous charge bonus, end up being your
attacking troops. They can also throw JLS from 40p, but don't rely
on that. It's difficult to get them into skirmish, also. So, think
of them as executing your attack, especially against enemy infantry.
Also use them to move through and attack in or out of bad terrain,
especially if of poor morale.

Frank

[joncleaves]

Ditto Frank's comments.

In addition:

Irr C LMI/MI JLS Sh are the reason why the Sea Peoples civilization was erased
and one of the reasons why they call it the Dark Ages...lol. Every successful
foot military sought improvements over the mass of men carrying short spear -
for a reason.

As Frank points out, better morale, a missile weapon, terrain, all help these
poor lads. But John, I think, was asking how to use them in their pure form.
I think it would be really something to win a major tourney equipped primarily
with such troops. Now, there's your bragging rights...
So, I have been giving this much thought. Also kudos to the Viking army that
Pat Byrnes played at Call to Arms for pushing me further along this line of
thinking.

Such troops have one endearing balancing characteristic. They are cheap.
Therefore my start to this plan would be to take them in at least 10E units,
probably 12E. Let's look at why.

A 12E LMI unit is the same cost as an SHK 2E and actually a match for them in
the right formation.
A 2E lancer hitting a 12E MI block can't recoil them on even dice even if the
12E is only 2E wide. Then the SHK is stuck fighting them 3 figs next bound
against steady foot. No one is going anywhere on even dice, yet if the SHK roll
up, still nothing will happen, but if the foot roll up, the SHK are dead...
The above was the key to the way I used to take and play Early Germans many
moons ago (even winning a tourney with them against two HYWE armies...) but the
EG have advantages of morale and good LI.
Which brings up my next point - very, very few armies are *entirely* Irr C
LMI/MI JLS Sh. Even the ones that must take a lot of it have *something* else
in the list. And it is those troops that you must employ to either:

-tire and/or disorder the lancers before they hit, or
-hit the lancer in the flank after it has fought the first bound of combat

and that discussion is case by case to what else is in the list.

LMI JLS need to be in 3x4 formation and have the lancer tired or disordered in
order not to be recoiled on even dice. 4x3 does it by itself, but makes you
wide enough to really be at risk of getting hit by two units.

This is why I am looking at those armies that have a mix of MI and LMI.

The big block/2E wide theory must also face good foot, but does so with the same
principle - not enough CPF can be done on a two Element frontage to break the
JLS

If you are somewhere on the table where he is only able to threaten you with one
unit on one, expand and make it worse.

So, the key is big units and using what else you were given (archers to tire
him, 2HCW to finish him off from the flank, an S standard so you can charge
impetuously, etc.) to make that initial 'stick' work.

Just my $0.02

Jon

[Doug]

>Out of period, against heavier cavalry types, you have almost no
>game at all if the majority of your troops are merely JLS,Sh.
>
>Now, if your intent is to play mainly in-period historical battles,
>that's fine . So, what can you do with these troops?

What is the approximate "period" of predominance for this troop type?

>
> A 12E LMI unit is the same cost as an SHK 2E and actually a match
for them in the right formation.

And what would be the right formation? 2E wide x 6E deep? Do all
those extra rows of depth actually do anything for you if the
javelins only fight in 2 ranks (the second only at 1/2 effect, I
think)?

Peter

[Mark Stone]

--- On August 5 Doug said: ---

>> Now, if your intent is to play mainly in-period historical battles,
>> that's fine . So, what can you do with these troops?
>
> What is the approximate "period" of predominance for this troop type?
>

Have you seen the movie "Quest for Fire"? or Act I of the movie "2001"? That's
about the right period.

Seriously, though, these guys are less than completely horrible in Biblical
Warrior and that's about it. Beyond that they are a liability you are trying to
compensate for.

I will say that the one tournament I ever played an elephant army (I was running
Sultanate of Delhi) I got a real scare in the finals going up against Ancient
British. My opponent had a sacred standard, large blocks of irreg LMI with
javelins, and a smattering of chariots to cause unease (and chase off
skirmishing troops).

I did what you have to do in such situations, namely have my EHC meet his LMI in
mutual impetuous charges so that (a) my EHC could survive the combat and not
rout, and (b) my elephants could then hit is LMI at a standstill next bound.
Still, it was a near run thing from just the sheer number of guys he had. I ran
out of elephants and EHC before he ran out of LMI, and if he had passed one more
waver test he would have had that extra unit needed to throw in after I was
fully committed and thus turn the tide.

So Jon has a good point. Sheer number of guys can make a difference, if you play
carefully and manage your frontage and spacing properly.


-Mark Stone

[John Murphy]

I don't get it. You can go back in the archives a few months and
find where folks are lamenting that Irr C LMI JLS, Sh can beat a lot
of other foot troops due to impetuosity and the JLS+ (Hoplites and
Legionaries I think were the original ones of concern).

What happened to suddenly make them so dreadful?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> --- On August 5 Doug said: ---
>
> >> Now, if your intent is to play mainly in-period historical
battles,
> >> that's fine . So, what can you do with these troops?
> >
> > What is the approximate "period" of predominance for this troop
type?
> >
>
> Have you seen the movie "Quest for Fire"? or Act I of the
movie "2001"? That's
> about the right period.
>
> Seriously, though, these guys are less than completely horrible in
Biblical
> Warrior and that's about it. Beyond that they are a liability you
are trying to
> compensate for.
>
> I will say that the one tournament I ever played an elephant army
(I was running
> Sultanate of Delhi) I got a real scare in the finals going up
against Ancient
> British. My opponent had a sacred standard, large blocks of irreg
LMI with
> javelins, and a smattering of chariots to cause unease (and chase
off
> skirmishing troops).
>
> I did what you have to do in such situations, namely have my EHC
meet his LMI in
> mutual impetuous charges so that (a) my EHC could survive the
combat and not
> rout, and (b) my elephants could then hit is LMI at a standstill
next bound.
> Still, it was a near run thing from just the sheer number of guys
he had. I ran
> out of elephants and EHC before he ran out of LMI, and if he had
passed one more
> waver test he would have had that extra unit needed to throw in
after I was
> fully committed and thus turn the tide.
>
> So Jon has a good point. Sheer number of guys can make a
difference, if you play
> carefully and manage your frontage and spacing properly.
>
>
> -Mark Stone

[John Garlic]

I'd like to thank everyone for their great advice. The armies I was looking
into were the Early Saxons, Vikings, and Early Hebrews. All of them have
additional positive points, but seem to be a bit short of the long pokey things.
I think its' gonna be one of those things to paint and spend a lot of time
working of timing and mastery.

John Garlic

> I'm not really going to get into the debate about how poor these guys
> are, as I tend to think that everything has at least some use.
>
> Jon hit the main points and hit them well ... that being how point
> effective these guys are, defense in depth and large units. Although
> I'm not on Mark's veteran player list, I have managed to win a few
> games over the years, and do have a few things to add.
>
> 1. Buy both the large units that Jon has rightly suggested, and
> smaller units that will be used to fit into small gaps and hit
> flanks. More in this in section 4 &5 below.
>
> 2. Stay Eager if you can. Irr A/B moral is nice, but if you don't get
> it, all is not lost. Standards help ... so can breaking an enemy unit
> in close proximity to your units.
>
> 3. Deploy and move up in a wide formations with light troops behind.
> What you will be looking to do, is contract away from serious
> threats, then throw lights at that threat. This works much better
> than you might imagine. The armies that are really threatening to you
> one-on-one, are smaller than you and have a difficult time deploying
> or properly screening themselves.
>
> 4. Use Terrain #1. There is a gain to be had with this sort of army,
> when mixed with good terrain choices. About the only given you can
> divine with an army based around this troop type (Irr LMI), is you
> can play well in terrain. Use terrain aggressively and place large
> units facing the enemy in order to hold it. Place your troops in the
> open in such a way that your opponent has to put this terrain on his
> flank to get to you.
>
> 5. Use Terrain #2. Be sneeky with the terrain. You know your not
> going to get kicked out of it, at least not quickly ... so feel free
> to do whatever you want behind the unit that is holding it. Think out
> of the box. Maybe you put heavy cavalry hidden in the terrain facing
> sideways, ready to sneek out and pop someone in the flank once the
> enemy is committed to your battle line. Maybe it is light infantry to
> pop out of a wood and become the enemy's new approach priority ...
> which trust me ... can be very irritating.
>
> 6. Remember, you do shoot! Your range is not good, but you do in fact
> shoot if you are loose order, and that shooting should not be
> discounted. Your light troops can help attempt to deny the enemy the
> ability to march to 240p from your big units, move into charge reach,
> and hit you next bound before you get a prep shot. This can help you
> get to your 40p shooting range. There are times this cannot be done,
> but if you can, you actually shoot very well, and stay shielded to
> boot.
>
> 7. Find your targets and do what you have to do to get at them. This
> comes with practice, but you may need to give a little to get a
> little more.
>
> 8. Be very careful when selecting the rest of your army. Think about
> your worst possible matchups for your JLS guys, and try to buy things
> that will beat them (better) or at least diffuse them (the next best
> alternative). An example would be against a knight army. If you buy
> quite a few units of JLS armed LI, you have a pretty good chance of
> getting these on enemy knights. Most knight armies do not get light
> infantry that can charge your lights (not having JLS), and if he
> moves large bodies of his foot up to get rid of your lights, you
> might have just gotten yourself something to fight. A format with
> more than one army list really helps you.
>
> 9. (last one, promise) Try to be creative with this kind of army.
> Many people think this is a "simple" army ... but I do not agree. If
> you line up in a nice straight line and advance, you not win very
> often. You need to come up with some creative ways to deploy and
> move, so as to give you good matches, and disguise your intent to the
> enemy. Don't base you tactics on any one of the suggestions above or
> from other people ... mix them up and have a bunch of things to throw
> at the enemy.
>
> Thats my input ... for whatever it might be worth.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

--- On August 5 John Murphy said: ---

> I don't get it. You can go back in the archives a few months and
> find where folks are lamenting that Irr C LMI JLS, Sh can beat a lot
> of other foot troops due to impetuosity and the JLS+ (Hoplites and
> Legionaries I think were the original ones of concern).
>
> What happened to suddenly make them so dreadful?

Nothing changed. If you look back in the archives, I don't think you'll find Jon
or Ewan or Frank or me or any of the other veteran players bemoaning the power
of Irr C LMI JLS,Sh. Probably there's a reason for that.


-Mark Stone

[John Garlic]

On the same topic, I've checked a few manufacturers, and can't seem to locate
anyone who makes Early Hebrews in 15/25mm? Essex does have some non-descript
javelin and bowmen that might fit the bill. I ordered the Osprey on Early
Armies in the Middle East just to take a gander at these guys. Of course I
guess I could spend an evening taking notes with Charleston Heston and Moses
too!

John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Damour]

You don't have proper faith in your troops? <<grin>>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Mark Stone wrote:
> Nothing changed. If you look back in the archives, I don't think you'll find
Jon
> or Ewan or Frank or me or any of the other veteran players bemoaning the power
> of Irr C LMI JLS,Sh. Probably there's a reason for that.

--
Christopher Damour

[Tim Grimmett]

I frequently play Gauls.

10E units will suffice because at 2 wide and 5 deep they are worth 21 cpf; a
knight at 5 at more is putting out no more than 60; therefore a single 6-man
knight cannot break one of these units in the first round of combat.

The trick is what kind of help you both have around for subsequent bounds.

And terrain is key.

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
>
> A 12E LMI unit is the same cost as an SHK 2E and actually a match
for them in the right formation.

And what would be the right formation? 2E wide x 6E deep? Do all
those extra rows of depth actually do anything for you if the
javelins only fight in 2 ranks (the second only at 1/2 effect, I
think)?

Peter


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Tim Grimmett]

I frequently play Gauls.

10E units will suffice because at 2 wide and 5 deep they are worth 21 cpf; a
knight at 5 at more is putting out no more than 60; therefore a single 6-man
knight cannot break one of these units in the first round of combat.

The trick is what kind of help you both have around for subsequent bounds.

And terrain is key.

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
>
> A 12E LMI unit is the same cost as an SHK 2E and actually a match
for them in the right formation.

And what would be the right formation? 2E wide x 6E deep? Do all
those extra rows of depth actually do anything for you if the
javelins only fight in 2 ranks (the second only at 1/2 effect, I
think)?

Peter


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/5/2004 19:28:49 Central Daylight Time,
pcelella@... writes:

Of course, all this great advice is for using LMI JLS,SH.>>

Well, I don't know about the other guys, but my advice was based on both MI
and LMI.

What if you
wanted to play, say the Early Visigoth army? Here the main troop type
is Irr C MI JLS,Sh. 1/4 to 1/3 of each of these units can be upgraded
to Irr A. Are using MI JLS a hopeless case? Or would this make sense
to have a 12E unit, with the 4 front elements upgraded to Irr A?>>
I would...for what it is worth.

In
this case would the unit be deployed 2E x 6E deep?>>

That depends on the enemy and terrain. But faced by knights in the open to
my front with friends or terrain nearby - oh yes.

I was hoping some
day to put together a 5th century German army, even if it isn't a top
competitor, but is there no chance of any success?>>
Like I said, I have and play an Early German army and have for years, with
two tourney wins under its belt. And if you speak even a little german, you
get to really taunt the romans. Just don't let any of the other four horsemen
deploy it for you....lol

Jon





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

I'm not really going to get into the debate about how poor these guys
are, as I tend to think that everything has at least some use.

Jon hit the main points and hit them well ... that being how point
effective these guys are, defense in depth and large units. Although
I'm not on Mark's veteran player list, I have managed to win a few
games over the years, and do have a few things to add.

1. Buy both the large units that Jon has rightly suggested, and
smaller units that will be used to fit into small gaps and hit
flanks. More in this in section 4 & 5 below.

2. Stay Eager if you can. Irr A/B moral is nice, but if you don't get
it, all is not lost. Standards help ... so can breaking an enemy unit
in close proximity to your units.

3. Deploy and move up in a wide formations with light troops behind.
What you will be looking to do, is contract away from serious
threats, then throw lights at that threat. This works much better
than you might imagine. The armies that are really threatening to you
one-on-one, are smaller than you and have a difficult time deploying
or properly screening themselves.

4. Use Terrain #1. There is a gain to be had with this sort of army,
when mixed with good terrain choices. About the only given you can
divine with an army based around this troop type (Irr LMI), is you
can play well in terrain. Use terrain aggressively and place large
units facing the enemy in order to hold it. Place your troops in the
open in such a way that your opponent has to put this terrain on his
flank to get to you.

5. Use Terrain #2. Be sneeky with the terrain. You know your not
going to get kicked out of it, at least not quickly ... so feel free
to do whatever you want behind the unit that is holding it. Think out
of the box. Maybe you put heavy cavalry hidden in the terrain facing
sideways, ready to sneek out and pop someone in the flank once the
enemy is committed to your battle line. Maybe it is light infantry to
pop out of a wood and become the enemy's new approach priority ...
which trust me ... can be very irritating.

6. Remember, you do shoot! Your range is not good, but you do in fact
shoot if you are loose order, and that shooting should not be
discounted. Your light troops can help attempt to deny the enemy the
ability to march to 240p from your big units, move into charge reach,
and hit you next bound before you get a prep shot. This can help you
get to your 40p shooting range. There are times this cannot be done,
but if you can, you actually shoot very well, and stay shielded to
boot.

7. Find your targets and do what you have to do to get at them. This
comes with practice, but you may need to give a little to get a
little more.

8. Be very careful when selecting the rest of your army. Think about
your worst possible matchups for your JLS guys, and try to buy things
that will beat them (better) or at least diffuse them (the next best
alternative). An example would be against a knight army. If you buy
quite a few units of JLS armed LI, you have a pretty good chance of
getting these on enemy knights. Most knight armies do not get light
infantry that can charge your lights (not having JLS), and if he
moves large bodies of his foot up to get rid of your lights, you
might have just gotten yourself something to fight. A format with
more than one army list really helps you.

9. (last one, promise) Try to be creative with this kind of army.
Many people think this is a "simple" army ... but I do not agree. If
you line up in a nice straight line and advance, you not win very
often. You need to come up with some creative ways to deploy and
move, so as to give you good matches, and disguise your intent to the
enemy. Don't base you tactics on any one of the suggestions above or
from other people ... mix them up and have a bunch of things to throw
at the enemy.

Thats my input ... for whatever it might be worth.

Greg


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, jmgarlic@a... wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Looking at a lot of early armies which I am interested in for
purely historical reasons. Just curious what kind of ideas/tactics
people have come up with for using the mostly Irr LMI/MI JLS Sh
troop types when they are a major component of an army.
>
> John Garlic