Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Well, now you mention cavalry breaking infantry frontally....

Didn't the Seleucid cataphracts break a Legion at Magnesia? (Bar-Kochva has
a very plausible theory as to why some commentators played this one down!).

On the other hand, in the same battle Cretan and Trallian skirmishers seem to
have routed scythe chariots by shooting at them. An equally rare event in
'Barker-World'. And I suspect it will be just as rare in 'Warrior -World'...

[joncleaves]

<<> On the other hand, in the same battle Cretan and Trallian skirmishers seem
to
> have routed scythe chariots by shooting at them. An equally rare event in
> 'Barker-World'. And I suspect it will be just as rare in
> 'Warrior -World'...>>

I'll take LI B vs. a scythed chariot any day....but who am I?

[scott holder]

On the other hand, in the same battle Cretan and Trallian skirmishers
seem to
have routed scythe chariots by shooting at them. An equally rare event
in
'Barker-World'. And I suspect it will be just as rare in 'Warrior
-World'...

>Actually no. But first, I'd love to see the Bar-Kovhca reference to
cataphracts on legions. In Warrior World, the Cretans and Trallians
shoot at the scythe chariots at 121p doing 2cpf forcing the waver test.
Said chariot blows waver test, is now shaken. In Warrior World, this
takes place in a 15 minute time increment.

>Next bound (15 minute time increment), since scythe chariot cannot now
do much of anything, Cretans and Trallians shoot again, causing waver
test, chariot blows waver test, chariot routs. "Real" time elapsed, 30
minutes.

>Obviously the chariot being Irr A makes it easier to pass waver tests.
One could argue (rationalize) that the Seleucid chariots "in reality"
tanked their waver tests (two 1s in a row or a 1 and then a 2).

>Over the years, scythe chariots in these rules have become more or less
a non-entity, a neat possible gimmick but far from the overwhelming one
it was 12 years ago.

Scott
Scythe Chariot Ho

....fair point...

[Kelly Wilkinson]

--- "Holder, Scott <FHWA>" <Scott.Holder@...>
wrote:
>
> >Actually no. But first, I'd love to see the
> Bar-Kovhca reference to
> cataphracts on legions.<SNIP>

***Scott, I think I can help out here. I happen to own
a copy of Bar-Kochva's book, "The Seleucid Army."
Hopefully this will clear up any misgivings! this
comes from the bottom of page 169-170.

"The description of the course of the battle,
despite some considerable gaps, is rather clear in
general but imposes one difficult question: whom did
Antiochus charge on the right flank? Appian recounts
that commanding 'the right wing cavalry (33(170"
probably the Agema, the cavalry Guard, and the
cataphracts, but not the Dahae, who were posted too
far away), Antiochus broke through the line of the
Roman phalanx' (34(177), 36(184)). Livy, who
attributes to Antiochus the command of the whole right
wing (37.41.1), states that he used the cataphracts
and 'auxiliaries', according to their location,
probably the Agema, to charge the turmae near the
river both by a frontal attack and an outflanking
movement, routing the tiny Roman cavalry force an part
of the adgacent infantry (42.7-. this version is
little short of amazing: there was no need of 3,000
cataphracts and 1,000 guardsmen on top of the 1,200
Dahae to break 120 horse; moreover, had the
cataphracts abandoned their position and attacked the
turmae in diagonal movement, they would have opened a
dangerous gap in the flank of their own phalanx.
Justin's version is the most interesting: to the
disgrace of the Romans, Antiochus is said to have
charged the Roman legion posted opposite his right
flank and routed it (36.8.6). In view of the
disposition of both armies, Justin seems to be more
reliable: the agema and cataphracts confronted the
left roman legion, and a head-on charge sounds
reasonable since the cataphracts were well enough
equipped to overcome the legion from the front. As the
total collapse of a Roman legion was quite rare and is
described by Justin as a disgrace, it is hardly
possible that he or Pompeius Trogus, his source, was
confusing part of the extreme Latin ala with the
adjacent Roman legion. On the other hand, Livy's
desire to write off this calamity is quite
understandable and could have inspired his absurd
account. It may be that Polybius, not making a clear
distinction between the legions and the alae in the
course of his narrative (cf. Livy 37.39., and
perhaps making some mention of the onslaught of the
Dahae cavalry on the turmae, confused Livy into
believing in the authenticity of his reconstruction."

*****Bar-Kochva seems to be right in line here. I
would also like to mention to the mighty list ho that
in many of his writings in the Seleucid Army,
Bar-Kochva mentions how different cavalry units work
as detachments of the Elphant Corps which suggests
that these cavalry forces are Elphant proof. If you
like, I will gladly furnish quotes to back this
assertion up. One such is implied in the battle of
Thermopylae, and another such comes to mind at the
battle of Beth-Zacheria.

Kelly










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[Greg Regets]

The scythed chariots are definately not 'all that' but at the price you can buy
them at, they are far too powerful. Hutchby & Clark got it right when they
classed them as "C"'s. This might be one of the few things they got right.
Having expendables check as A class tropps was silly in 7th, and should have
been fixed when the point system should have been fixed for Warrior.

Rant over ... play on!

Greg


----- Original Message -----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA>
To: IPM Return requested (Receipt notification requested)
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules]legionaries weak?


On the other hand, in the same battle Cretan and Trallian skirmishers
seem to
have routed scythe chariots by shooting at them. An equally rare event
in
'Barker-World'. And I suspect it will be just as rare in 'Warrior
-World'...

>Actually no. But first, I'd love to see the Bar-Kovhca reference to
cataphracts on legions. In Warrior World, the Cretans and Trallians
shoot at the scythe chariots at 121p doing 2cpf forcing the waver test.
Said chariot blows waver test, is now shaken. In Warrior World, this
takes place in a 15 minute time increment.

>Next bound (15 minute time increment), since scythe chariot cannot now
do much of anything, Cretans and Trallians shoot again, causing waver
test, chariot blows waver test, chariot routs. "Real" time elapsed, 30
minutes.

>Obviously the chariot being Irr A makes it easier to pass waver tests.
One could argue (rationalize) that the Seleucid chariots "in reality"
tanked their waver tests (two 1s in a row or a 1 and then a 2).

>Over the years, scythe chariots in these rules have become more or less
a non-entity, a neat possible gimmick but far from the overwhelming one
it was 12 years ago.

Scott
Scythe Chariot Ho














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