Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Chris Damour]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> Actually neither...lol. If the elephant is only one element deep, it cannot
be in contact with two units of enemy on the same flank. Having to model an
elephant on a deeper base because the figure is physically too large still
requires one to play it as though it were based correctly.

Is this correct in all scales? While it is true that in 15mm a model
is on a square base (40mm x 40mm) in 25mm models are mounted on a
rectangular base (60mm x 80mm) and thus I believed could be contacted by a
two element frontage on the flank. Have I been playing this wrong all
these years? (Or is this a TOG holdover that you addressed and I've only
been wrong since the release of Warrior?)


--
Christopher Damour

[joncleaves]

That 80mm depth in 25mm scale is an acceptance of the reality that there are
essentially no 25mm chariot/elephant models that can be fit onto a 60mm depth
base. But an element is an element and you can't put two elements on one in
Warrior. Mike's question is one of the many reasons why the rules cannot
allow this.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: damourc <damourc@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:52:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [WarriorRules] Models Being Contacted to Flank...



On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> Actually neither...lol. If the elephant is only one element deep, it cannot
be in contact with two units of enemy on the same flank. Having to model an
elephant on a deeper base because the figure is physically too large still
requires one to play it as though it were based correctly.

Is this correct in all scales? While it is true that in 15mm a model
is on a square base (40mm x 40mm) in 25mm models are mounted on a
rectangular base (60mm x 80mm) and thus I believed could be contacted by a
two element frontage on the flank. Have I been playing this wrong all
these years? (Or is this a TOG holdover that you addressed and I've only
been wrong since the release of Warrior?)


--
Christopher Damour



Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Damour]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> That 80mm depth in 25mm scale is an acceptance of the reality that there are
essentially no 25mm chariot/elephant models that can be fit onto a 60mm depth
base. But an element is an element and you can't put two elements on one in
Warrior. Mike's question is one of the many reasons why the rules cannot
allow this.

So the answer would be "Yes Chris, you've been playing it wrong."
then?

--
Christopher Damour

[joncleaves]

I wouldn't know that. :)


-----Original Message-----
From: damourc <damourc@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:09:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Models Being Contacted to Flank...



On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> That 80mm depth in 25mm scale is an acceptance of the reality that there are
essentially no 25mm chariot/elephant models that can be fit onto a 60mm depth
base. But an element is an element and you can't put two elements on one in
Warrior. Mike's question is one of the many reasons why the rules cannot
allow this.

So the answer would be "Yes Chris, you've been playing it wrong."
then?

--
Christopher Damour



Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

What I am planning instead is an expansion to 2.512 to make this clearer and
cover more cases.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bard <mwbard@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:40:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Models Being Contacted to Flank...



It was a 25mm elephant and thus the base was 60x80. Thus two 60x40 cavalry
bases had a net frontage of 120mm contacting a flank depth of 80mm and thus,
according to 9.2, both cavalry units could fight.

Which means that either a general rule is needed that basically states a
counter cannot be used if such a movement would remove some units from
frontal contact (i.e. the counter was illegal) or special rules to handle
the fact that chariot and elephant bases are different proportionally in
different scales...

Which means the question still needs to be answered. Sorry Jon...

My gut feeling is that there should be a clarification for 6.126: "There are
certain cases due to base sizes where the flank of a unit is deeper than its
frontage. In such cases no manuever may be made if it would remove the
countering body from base contact with one or more enemy units. EXAMPLE:
Two one element wide units of loose order foot are in flank contact with a
unit of elephantry in 25mm scale. Each loose order foot base is 60mm wide
for a total frontage of 120mm. The elephantry has a base depth of 80mm and
consists of two elements. If the elephantry performed a counter to do a 90
degree turn (changing into a column one element wide and 2 elements deep)
then one of the two units of loose order foot would no longer be in contact
and thus the counter would not be allowed." Sadly, I think a visual example
is going to be needed.

This should likely be extended to the idea that the number of elements in
contact may not be reduced by maneuvers by one of the units in contact (so
if it was only one unit of loose order foot two elements wide, the counter
would still not be legal).

I await your clarification. :)

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

Question Repeat:

A unit of elephantry is one element deep and two elements wide. Two units
of cavalry, each one element wide and one element deep charge it in the
flank. They cause 15 CPF and recoil the elephantry. The elephantry
attempts a counter to turn to face. There are no other units anywhere.
When the elephantry does a 90 degree turn, it changes into a column one
element wide and two deep.

Option A: The counter is legal. The elephantry turns, and one of the
cavalry units in contact is no longer in contact and rallies in place as all
melee opponents have broken off.

Option B: The counter is not legal because it would result in the elephantry
withdrawing from contact with a unit it is engaged in melee with.




Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

It was a 25mm elephant and thus the base was 60x80. Thus two 60x40 cavalry
bases had a net frontage of 120mm contacting a flank depth of 80mm and thus,
according to 9.2, both cavalry units could fight.

Which means that either a general rule is needed that basically states a
counter cannot be used if such a movement would remove some units from
frontal contact (i.e. the counter was illegal) or special rules to handle
the fact that chariot and elephant bases are different proportionally in
different scales...

Which means the question still needs to be answered. Sorry Jon...

My gut feeling is that there should be a clarification for 6.126: "There are
certain cases due to base sizes where the flank of a unit is deeper than its
frontage. In such cases no manuever may be made if it would remove the
countering body from base contact with one or more enemy units. EXAMPLE:
Two one element wide units of loose order foot are in flank contact with a
unit of elephantry in 25mm scale. Each loose order foot base is 60mm wide
for a total frontage of 120mm. The elephantry has a base depth of 80mm and
consists of two elements. If the elephantry performed a counter to do a 90
degree turn (changing into a column one element wide and 2 elements deep)
then one of the two units of loose order foot would no longer be in contact
and thus the counter would not be allowed." Sadly, I think a visual example
is going to be needed.

This should likely be extended to the idea that the number of elements in
contact may not be reduced by maneuvers by one of the units in contact (so
if it was only one unit of loose order foot two elements wide, the counter
would still not be legal).

I await your clarification. :)

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

Question Repeat:

A unit of elephantry is one element deep and two elements wide. Two units
of cavalry, each one element wide and one element deep charge it in the
flank. They cause 15 CPF and recoil the elephantry. The elephantry
attempts a counter to turn to face. There are no other units anywhere.
When the elephantry does a 90 degree turn, it changes into a column one
element wide and two deep.

Option A: The counter is legal. The elephantry turns, and one of the
cavalry units in contact is no longer in contact and rallies in place as all
melee opponents have broken off.

Option B: The counter is not legal because it would result in the elephantry
withdrawing from contact with a unit it is engaged in melee with.

[Derek Downs]

So does this mean when a two element frontage unit hits an 25mm elephant 80mm
flank it should only fight one element at first contact?

Derek


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/22/2005 19:39:30 Central Daylight Time,
darnd022263@... writes:

So does this mean when a two element frontage unit hits an 25mm elephant
80mm
flank it should only fight one element at first contact?

Derek>>


Yes, it is still just one element and has to be played like it is 60mm.

J








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Relax, Mike. I said "play" it like 60mm, not go back and base it to 60mm.

2.512 allows those troops to be based on 80mm deep bases to accomodate the
figures, NOT to make a single troop type that is treated differently than any
other element in any other scale.

The passage of 2.512 that really matters here is:

"Some manufacturers’ figures are much larger than the nominal 15mm/25mm
scale. It is permissible to extend depth (NOT
WIDTH) of an element to accommodate such if necessary."

This does NOT permit that depth to be played differently just because we are
making room for larger figures.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

Jon, to quote from the current rulebook, page 12, 2.512 Element Bases:

Figure Scale 25mm
Frontage (all) 60mm
Depth for Elephants, Chariots, Expendables: 80mm.

80mm > 60mm. This is in the rulebook. In black and white. I, and others,
do not do it to make the "figures fit". We do it because the rules say that
we have to.

Please please tell me that the new printing doesn't change the base size for
elephants/chariots/expendables in 25mm to 60mmx60mm. Please...

And, for everybody else, a clarification has been made by the Fourhorsemen
about how the rule should read. It states that a flank cannot be contacted
by more elements frontage than it's depth in elements, and only elements
that contact the enemy flank other than corner to corner count as in
contact. A ruling has been made, this topic should how be closed.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

> Yes, it is still just one element and has to be played like it is 60mm.
>
> J