Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Greg Regets]

Dave ...

I completely agree that is was a 25mm, one day tournament, but in
defense of Scott and Jon ... be realistic!

We have to show that we will come, BEFORE they make a committment to
something so big.

Right?

g

P.S. Scott ... we are sorry that you had a bad experience, but in
this case, it is quite true that right now, I'm the only one in South
Texas that owns a 25mm army. To have expected better attendance was
perhaps unrealistic.




--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Harlan D. Garrett"
<Harlan.D.Garrett@W...> wrote:
> Greg,
>
> Dave as me to post this for him. Remember that OKC tournament was
25-mm
> one-day tournament which natural draws less people since most
gamers do not
> have 25-mm army(ies). I am talking about a 15-mm "national"
tournament that
> is going to happen at a set location-that is a little more
friendlier to
> travelers, natural locations would be DFW, OKC, KC, CHI. Naturally
we know,
> the first year attendance is going to be light, but as we continue
to host
> it, it will pick up steam and grow. I am not talking about
replacing the
> 25-mm NICT, but just supplementing it.
>
> Dave,
> Via An Interpreter
> Harlan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Regets [mailto:gar@t...]
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:40 AM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: NICT Poll and 25mm Scale
>
>
> Big Dave ...
>
> We know you are hard headed, being a very good offensive linemen
from
> years gone past, but I think there is a reason you are not getting
> support for something in the midwest.
>
> Remember about two years ago (roughly) the Dallas guys had a
> tournament in, I believe OKC, and none of the South Texas group
> attended?
>
> To call for a NICT tournament up there now ... welll, my hypocracy
> does have some limits!
>
> g
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "DBeeson" <dbeeson@s...> wrote:
> > Jon,
> > I'd like to say that you and Scott have no imagination when it
> comes to the
> > two NICT champs, but I know that's totally not true.
> > I know you all have a boat load on your plate, I guess no one else
> would
> > love to see a 15mm NICT and or a big Con in another location You
both
> > keep saying " not anytime soon..." etc., well I guess it
> will be
> > never, if it never starts.
> > Come on guys! No one is up for this?
> > I'm e-mailing in the Wilderness here:)
> > David " Hard Headed Texan " Beeson
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <JonCleaves@a...>
> > To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 6:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: NICT Poll and 25mm Scale
> >
> >
> > > In a message dated 12/19/2003 06:48:08 Central Standard Time,
> > > dbeeson@s... writes: Jon,
> > > Ok, so what would it take for you to like this idea once again?
> > > Let me say again, I am not saying to move the 25mm NICT, just
> have a 15mm
> > at
> > > another time and location.
> > > I know I'm a hard headed Texan but what's wrong with starting
> small?
> > > Miniature Companies will show up and support an event
> > > if enough people show on a consistent basis, a 15mm NICT might
be
> a good
> > > draw. How many would it take?
> > > How many players are now on this group? This is one of the best
> ways to
> > > advertise such an event.
> > > David
> > > Well, for starters, Dave, I am opposed to the idea of two things
> called
> > the
> > > NICT. There should be only one champion a year, whether the
> event is FHE
> > or
> > > NASAMW run.
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
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> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
> > >
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> > > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
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> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
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[scott holder]

But we have offered to lend 25mm lead to those folks that we know.

>This works but only up to a point. Most people simply want to run their own
army, even if you can provide an exact duplicate of it in 25mm. If you can't,
interest drops if that's what they like doing. This isn't an indictment on
anybody. One reason to stick with one army in one scale is to "be current" so
that you optimize your tournament play. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm seeing all of the no- troops in the flank sectors and 480 pace rear zones
being purported to accelerate games. Just appears to my tired old eyes as
though you are subconsiously attempting to get a 25mm feel in a 15mm game. So
take the plunge.

>Exactly. Why turn a 15mm game into a 25mm game? Particularly when the trend
(in my mind) is to take something like the Mini format and play it on a
"regular" sized table. Opens things up to a certain extent.

>I agree with Ewan in that the games are different, no doubt about it. Armies
that I'd play in 15mm I wouldn't consider running in 25mm and vice versa. I
don't consider that means one scale is "better" than the other, well, okay I do
but easily concede the point that if you want certain armies and a certain style
of play which is important to Warrior, then play in 15mm. I can say that folks
like Chris (and John Green for that matter) who take the plunge into 25mm
usually never look back. The flip side of that is Legal Ho Bill. He still
prefers a 15mm game, possibly because the armies and tactics suit his playing
style better, I dunno. Therefore, if I want "that" kind of game, I'll play
15mm, and don't want anything in the format to make it a 25mm game. Heh heh, I
have plenty of armies for that. For instance, tonight I'm driving to STL to
play Darrell Smith (he pretty much plays the abstract game but keeps his toes
wet in Warrior mainly to humor me) and we're playing a rare 15mm game (for
us--one reason he likes playing Warrior with me is that he can actually play a
game in 25mm--all the players in his area are abstract game players and of
course only 15mm players), Tibetans vs probably a draft Imperial Warrior cav
list (Sarmations or their ilk). Should give me a completely different feel of a
game I haven't had probably since I played against Ed Bernhart in April in 15mm.

It isn't cost prohibitive if you buy a bag or two at a time
and just paint them until you are finished. Buying an army all at once can be
scary, but I know from my exactly 4 visits to Dibbles that they carry 25mm
stuff, and at least once I found it on sale. Also there is a site in Canada
that
sells not only Foundry but OG and others at US dollar rates but in Canadian
dollars, essentially gaining a 30% discount.

>Ask anybody who's been to Hcon and done some dedicated flea market shopping and
they'll tell you, you can find 25mm armies for the cost of 15mm armies. Sure,
you won't put together a Gripping Beast or Foundry army for that price but
you'll do okay. There are also plenty of other figure lines out there that
would help you take the plunge, Irregular being my favorite. That way, you
don't invest too much and have one army to take to those pesky 25mm-only
tournaments:) And since things aren't gonna change every other year, you can
put together a 25mm army that you like, can develop a style with and feel
assured you can play well with it for the forseeable future.

>And if you dip your figures, painting them doesn't take forever. And start
with a Feudal Warrior list--not nearly the figure requirements plus as Mark
indicated, you paint up one generic "knight" army, you can pretty much run 12 of
them with more or less the same figures.

>Since I'm on this philisophical screed, the dice rolling game is a one-scale
game and look at it's popularity. I'm not suggesting we go that route because I
think having two scales only expands our appeal, not limiting it. However, if
you play the abstract game and it's predominant scale, you get absolutely no
sense of visual presence and I feel that's a limiting factor in its appeal.
Certainly not what you get in the dice rolling game or in Warrior. I don't know
about most of you but the reason I got into miniature wargaming wasn't because
Scotty Bowden's crappy-ass old Minuteman AWI rules or WRG 5th Edition rules were
so fascinating and captivating (those were my first games with miniatures). It
was because of the visual element of the game. I could easily play something as
complex as Squad Leader if I wanted intense, mind boggingly complex games with
some *graphic* appeal but no *visual* appeal. If you looked at the two NICTs
this year at Hcon, one had no visual appeal, the other........

>If I come down to the Southern Republic of Texas (as opposed to the Northern
Republic of Texas), I'll bring 15mm to play and be damned happy to bring it and
play it! I mean we play 15mm in KC even though you've got two massive 25mm
cheerleaders here (me and Jon). I'll make sure that the HMGS East cons always
have plenty of 15mm events and room to play in em. But I still feel the best
way to promote this game and this subset of the hobby, is to *emphasize* play in
25mm and our premier event, the NICT, is part of that promotional effort. It
carried us thru the lean years between TOG and Warrior and we've really done
something good back east this year in terms of the NICT or the Mini Campaign
Theme, etc.

scott

[Todd Schneider]

Instead of trying to get together a big tournament and
call it a NICT, why not make it regional, and then
have a "Western Invitiational" at a bigger tournament
such as GhengisCon in Denver?

Could it be structured in such a way that say the
winner of Fort Worth Wars is guarenteed a spot in both
tournaments, the Invitational and the NICT? I don't
know how to figure it into the overall "National"
competition, but could you also set aside a game at
Historicon for the Invitational winner and the NICT
winner to play each other?

Is that at all feasible?

Todd

[scott holder]

Instead of trying to get together a big tournament and
call it a NICT, why not make it regional, and then
have a "Western Invitiational" at a bigger tournament
such as GhengisCon in Denver?

>The usual ratio of NASAMW members to those eligible would apply. If someone
won the "western invitational" (although again, how do you "invite" folks?) he
would be on the NICT list fer sure.

I don't know how to figure it into the overall "National"
competition, but could you also set aside a game at
Historicon for the Invitational winner and the NICT
winner to play each other?

>Means nothing, doesn't work well in the current scheduling system and 1-game
playoffs usually result in one guy killing the other guy's LI unit, then holding
up and proclaiming "victory"--not a good way to end things. Been there, done
that, threw out the tshirt:):)

scott

[scott holder]

We could "cluster" these things. By this I mean everything outside of the
Northeast or north of Richmond VA. I mean we've got one potentially large-ish
event coming up in California next month with several Hos slated to attend.

Okay, one cluster there that could result in one large regional event.

Second cluster is in the Republic of Texas.

Third cluster is in the KC area.

Fourth cluster is in the People's Republic of Derek, ie, Florida.

That's potentially 4 large (by large I mean 16+ players, 20+ would be better but
I'll settle for 16) regional events. Remember, you need to tailor events so as
to attract the largest number of people, especially since virtually all of them
outside your immediate region will have to fly to get there. Prizes are nice
but not paramount. Longish events are gonna kill you because of people having
to travel.

Other areas with an unknown or very small player base is the Denver area,
Chicago and almost anything between KC and VA. Dunno how to work that angle.

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Fri 12/19/2003 1:02 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: NICT Poll and 25mm Scale



In a message dated 12/19/2003 11:50:52 Central Standard Time,
thresh1642@... writes:
Instead of trying to get together a big tournament and
call it a NICT, why not make it regional, and then
have a "Western Invitiational" at a bigger tournament
such as GhengisCon in Denver?
This is a much better initial idea. The last area where DBM has us is in the
size and number of its regional events. I say we work on making a big one of
these first.


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Well to be honest I think the whole Nict needs changing to the North American
Championship Tournament since many of our good friends that play at Historicon
are from other countries. I see nothing wrong though with having a 15mm champion
and a 25mm champion. They are two different games. Why do we have to have a
combined scale championship?

kelly

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 12/19/2003 06:48:08 Central Standard Time,
dbeeson@... writes:
Jon,
Ok, so what would it take for you to like this idea once again?
Let me say again, I am not saying to move the 25mm NICT, just have a 15mm at
another time and location.
I know I'm a hard headed Texan but what's wrong with starting small?
Miniature Companies will show up and support an event
if enough people show on a consistent basis, a 15mm NICT might be a good
draw. How many would it take?
How many players are now on this group? This is one of the best ways to
advertise such an event.
David
Well, for starters, Dave, I am opposed to the idea of two things called the
NICT. There should be only one champion a year, whether the event is FHE or
NASAMW run.


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Once again the voice of reason. Todd, I agree with you here. It would be nice to
have something like that here in the Sho-Me State considering that we have two
of the heavy hitters right here in our own back yard. You folks realize that
Little Wars is in Chicago and known as a decent venue. I would be for anything
that would allow us to get back to the days when Jake was our area coordinator
and 7th was "The Game." We had unbelievable attendance even for a period of 4 or
5 years after Jake went to Georgia.

Kelly

Todd Schneider <thresh1642@...> wrote:
Instead of trying to get together a big tournament and
call it a NICT, why not make it regional, and then
have a "Western Invitiational" at a bigger tournament
such as GhengisCon in Denver?

Could it be structured in such a way that say the
winner of Fort Worth Wars is guarenteed a spot in both
tournaments, the Invitational and the NICT? I don't
know how to figure it into the overall "National"
competition, but could you also set aside a game at
Historicon for the Invitational winner and the NICT
winner to play each other?

Is that at all feasible?

Todd


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 12/20/2003 08:07:32 Central Standard Time,
jjendon@... writes:
I am in full agreement with you on
your desire to make another BIG event grow somewhere other than Lancaster,
preferably within 8 hours of my house as opposed to the 23 for Lancaster.
However, it can not grow without attendance. How are we to convince people
in a widening radius to make the effort to come, if our own backyard does
not support the idea.
Don, you do realize that the post this is in response to wasn't mine?...lol
You start by saying 'Jon' but the clipped quote is someone else's...

However, just so we are clear on what Scott and I have been saying, we are
not talking about the need to have 8, 10, 12, 16 whatever players at a local con
before we think about moving the NICT, we are talking about 30+ players at a
con with an attendance of 1000+. And that, for me at least, is a minimum.

There are three basic discussions spinning off this thread:

1. Possible move of NICT. Not happening anytime soon unless there is a
venue out there I am not aware of that even gives us 50% of what we get at HCon.

2. More/larger regional events. I totally support this. Problem is, for me
at least, I already run two here in KC (and I do tap into regional money for
the best prize to player ratio in ANY miniatures tourney, so it can be done)
and I go to 5-7 more events across the country. Plate is pretty full at the
moment. This is a job for fifth horsemen....

3. Warrior involvement in IWF. I will start looking into this for 2005.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Coon]

Jon,
> I'd like to say that you and Scott have no imagination when it comes to
the
> two NICT champs, but I know that's totally not true.
> I know you all have a boat load on your plate, I guess no one else would
> love to see a 15mm NICT and or a big Con in another location
> You both keep saying " not anytime soon..." etc., well I guess it will be
> never, if it never starts.
> Come on guys! No one is up for this?

Patrick and I at least were once up for this. We sang this song until we
were blue in the face. We tried to make Fort Worth Wars THE next big
regonal event and got 8 players the first year in 25mm, then switched to
15mm to stimiulate local interest and got 6 ( 2 of which came all the way
from KC). We thought perhaps Twister Con would be more central and draw mid
westerners and southerns, and we drew 4! Scott came all the way from St
loius(?) and all we could show him was 3 other players! Patrick and I are
not so niaeve as to think this was going to blossum over night. We knew we
would have to plant it and nuture it and grow it over several years.
However it died on the vine. We feel to make this have any chance to grow
we needed FHE support. We got that at TCon 2003, and rewarded Scott's long
drive with 3! opponents. How could we blame him (or anyone else) for not
wanting to make a drive for that. Nothing we have done in the last three
years has helped it grow, and in fact this past year any hopes of growing a
nearby local tourny EVENT were crippled. I am in full agreement with you on
your desire to make another BIG event grow somewhere other than Lancaster,
preferably within 8 hours of my house as opposed to the 23 for Lancaster.
However, it can not grow without attendance. How are we to convince people
in a widening radius to make the effort to come, if our own backyard does
not support the idea. There are probably 20 players within 5 hours of Fort
Wort. There are probably 30+ within 8 hours of Oklahoma City. You start
fielding a mere 12 and grow from there and some of the outlying regions MAY
take notice and give it a look. Instead you go 8, 6, 4 and the rest of the
gaming community just yawns at us. Words are easy to write (I am not
attempted to offend you here Dave), but ACTIONS are what get the job done.
IMHO we in the DFW community at least have failed in the endevour mightily.

Don

[Don Coon]

> Remember about two years ago (roughly) the Dallas guys had a
> tournament in, I believe OKC, and none of the South Texas group
> attended?
>
> To call for a NICT tournament up there now ... welll, my hypocracy
> does have some limits!

Thanks for remembering Greg. Re: my post of ten minutes ago. Sorry for the
rant guys, just hit a raw spot thats all.

Don

[Don Coon]

> P.S. Scott ... we are sorry that you had a bad experience, but in
> this case, it is quite true that right now, I'm the only one in South
> Texas that owns a 25mm army. To have expected better attendance was
> perhaps unrealistic.

As much as we hate to abondon hopes of 25mm, we saw this too and switched to
15mm. We did not exactly draw big at Fort Worth Wars either, even with the
15mm.

Don

[Don Coon]

> Greg nailed the salient point. We have to demonstrate a demand before we
can
> ask for the supply. Fort Worth Wars barely draws a half dozen vendors.
It
> is probably the largest convention in this slice of the country and we
can't
> even get 10 guys to show up for Warrior. A NICT is no guarantee that we
can
> draw more. Lets walk before we try to sprint. Maybe FWW is not the
venue. But
> we should demonstrate a run of maybe 3 years consecutively where we can
draw
> more than our 12 stalwarts before we ask for tournament recognition, much
less
> National acclaim. Kinda like the El Paso bowl telling the BCS what a
great
> boon it would be to hold the National Championship there.
> Chris

My point, worded better .

Don

[Don Coon]

> I am in full agreement with you on
> your desire to make another BIG event grow somewhere other than Lancaster,
> preferably within 8 hours of my house as opposed to the 23 for Lancaster.
> However, it can not grow without attendance. How are we to convince
people
> in a widening radius to make the effort to come, if our own backyard does
> not support the idea.
> Don, you do realize that the post this is in response to wasn't
mine?...lol
> You start by saying 'Jon' but the clipped quote is someone else's...

Iwas responding to Dave B.

> However, just so we are clear on what Scott and I have been saying, we are
> not talking about the need to have 8, 10, 12, 16 whatever players at a
local con
> before we think about moving the NICT, we are talking about 30+ players at
a
> con with an attendance of 1000+. And that, for me at least, is a minimum.
>
> There are three basic discussions spinning off this thread:
>
> 1. Possible move of NICT. Not happening anytime soon unless there is a
> venue out there I am not aware of that even gives us 50% of what we get at
HCon.

Not asking for or wanting this.

> 2. More/larger regional events. I totally support this. Problem is, for
me
> at least, I already run two here in KC (and I do tap into regional money
for
> the best prize to player ratio in ANY miniatures tourney, so it can be
done)
> and I go to 5-7 more events across the country. Plate is pretty full at
the
> moment. This is a job for fifth horsemen....

Want this big time, but am majorly disallusioned.

>
> 3. Warrior involvement in IWF. I will start looking into this for 2005.
>
> Jon

Do not know what IWF means.

Don