Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Some thoughts on Hoplites

I thought I'd send this to the list to provoke some discussion and
suggestion as to the way hoplites are represented and played in
Warrior. I'll confess here that much of the following was provoked by
an exchange on the list more than a year ago when Mike Bard suggested
that he found the Hoplite list "too weak" and someone (I can't remember
who) replied "who did they beat?"

That's a very useful question, when trying to model war.

The problem is that the answers are unsatisfying and complex, many
of them far beyond the abilities of a game to represent. I could (and
will) argue that within their period, they beat EVERYONE. But that
simple answer, even if I could support it with a horde of military facts
and figures, would ignore the larger cultural issues which exist in
every period. Greek CULTURE subsumed, assimilated, or affected nearly
every culture in the Mediterranean basin(and was affected in return),
from the Scythians in the north to Egypt in the south. It is difficult
to draw a line between the success of Greek culture and the success of
Greek arms.

Let's try, anyway. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm
sticking to the Classical period, from Marathon in 490 BC to Chaeronea
in 338 BC. The period opens with the citizen hoplites of Athens
defeating a Persian army. Just as importantly, the prior centuries had
seen Greek city-states successfully establish colonies, many of which
then became important independent states, in Africa, throughout the
Mediterranean littoral, and into the Black Sea and Asia. These colonies
in turn created armies based on the Greek model, with a nucleus of
citizen hoplites. Hoplites served even farther afield, because their
utility was so widely recognized in period that Persian, Scythian,
Thracian, Egyptian, Libyan, and Italian rulers who lacked a
hoplite-capable citizenry of ther own sought eagerly to hire Greek
mercenaries to act as the nucleus of their armies. They were recognized
within their period as the Ne Plus Ultra of infantry formations; a troop
type whose presence in an enemy army could only be answered by the
inclusion of a similar force in one's own host.

Battle analysis suggests that the reason they were so essential is
that no other form of infantry of the day would willingly stand against
them in hand-to-hand combat. This is not to say they were unbeatable;
merely that when they advanced, sang their Paean and charged, there was
no force of infantry that could withstand them. Whether we look at the
stand of the 300 at Thermopolye or the march of the 10,000 through Asia,
the period is full of documented examples of the inablility of opposing
commanders to defeat or destroy well formed bodies of hoplites. (Let
me note here that this difficulty was not dependent on ground.)

The training of the hoplite was in many ways similar to that of the
Medieval knight, which may be why I like them so much. Indeed, the
entire Greek male culture was geared to providing young men with the
skills to make good hoplites, and this was as true in cultured Athens as
it was in military Sparta. Aeschylus, perhaps the greatest playwrite of
ancient Athens, had no mention of his art on his tombstone, which read
only "Aeschylus, who stood in the front rank at Marathon." Young men
were taught to run, to leap, to throw a javelin; in fact, we know a
great deal about the skills required and their practice, because every
one of them is still part of our own atheletic tradition. Some
examination of the number of races run in armor, the distances covered,
and the expectations of personal privation serve to remind us that this
was a society that expected war to be very hard indeed.

These skills and the hardness they produced made a soldier far more
well-rounded than is easy to represent in a game system. Xenophon, in
the Anabasis, notes after the first encounter with a horde of Persian
missile troops, two things that should amaze us; one is that his rear
guard stood and took their missile fire for some hours with only seven
casualties (I'm going an memory here, but it's like that) and the second
is that from among the hoplite mercanaries, that night he was able to
make up forces of javelinemen and slingers who could out-range and out
fire-fight the enemy, simply by asking for volunteers who had the
greatest skill with these arms. (He also mentions that his javelinemen
threw their javelins from a strap, an advantage that would boost the
performance of many Olympic atheletes enormously! and which may make
the weapon used more like a dart than a true javelin.) He later picks
the youngest, most atheletic soldiers for special warfare tasks, and is
able to lead them in armor up a mountain (once, three mountains in one
action) to outclimb Persian light infantry.

These aren't Spartans. These are just mercenaries.

A careful reading of the Anabasis can reveal a great deal about the
strengths and weaknesses of the hoplites; clearly, for instance, (and
contrary to other rules sets) they could deploy rapidly to the flanks,
or even face, since both maneuvers are clearly executed (and described
in fairly minute detail). They could, and did, charge successfully into
difficult terrain, or even over it; they used columns of attack with
skirmishers in the intervals (sounds very late 18th C. to me!) and used
deep columns to diffuse shock. They felt that only four ranks of men
(that's a single figure of depth in Warrior) was sufficient to repel
horse. On the other hand, Xenephon demonstrates over and over again
that the very fear they inspired served to rob most of their actions of
any real success. One of the most startling, and interesting aspects of
the warfare described by Xenophon (and one of the things that serves to
indicate its authenticity, given the way soldiers tend to brag up a
body-count) is that he admits that against nimble, light armed
opponents, like Thracians and Persian skirmishers, the Hoplite advance
could easily push the enemy off the battlefield and into full flight,
but seldom caused them any serious casualties unless they could be
trapped against a really difficult piece of terrain (on one occaision,
his rearguard catches a body of Persians against a gully and anihilites it.)

Can any of this be modeled?

That's up to the list writers, although I'd be interested, as I say
above, in getting people on the forum to discuss what they think. No
one, I think, is interested in turning hoplites into a godlike troop
type, but here in Toronto we have several people playing variations on
them; it is (sort of) their theme year, and it would be worthwhile, I
think, for the hobby to have the armies based on them play well.

I am not an inexperienced player. Against a novice, I can make a
hoplite army appear formidable, especially if he or she does not know
the real numbers, and/or has no SHK's who can dismount. However,
against a player of skill, it is almost impossible to generate a win and
fairly difficult to avoid a disaster. Any army with regular cavalry
(like, say, in-period Persians!) will tend to be on your flanks in an
instant with a doggedness that may be a-historical, but I'm not writing
about the Persian list...

Since the heart of the list is the hoplite, let's take a few in-period
matchups that would be typical in a refight or at a tourny. Let us
assume our Hoplites are the average, reg. C MI, LTS, sh.

Against Thracians: Thracians peltasts with 2HCW and JLS charge in with
3 @5 (2HCW) +1 (JLS) +3 (Charging and Imp loose) -2 (facing steady LTS)
= 7 and 2 more @ 4; causing 24 casualties. They receive in return 15
(that's a rank and a half LTS @3). This result means that the Hoplites
are disordered and pushed back on an element for element basis. They
now have the Thracians shieldless, but this advantage is cancelled by
their own disorder and the fact that the Thracians no longer face their
steady LTS. The hoplites are beaten. Also note that if the Thracians
roll up one on the initial charge (roughly a 31 percent chance, as I
recall, perhaps incorrectly) the hoplites are routed. (This example
uses HI hoplites for emphasis)
Hmm. Is there a recorded instance of a body of Thracians routing a
formed body of hoplites frontally?

Against any Irregular close order foot with JLS (and that's a LOT of
armies in period, including much Persian foot!)
Irr. C MI, JLS, sh chargeing impetuously on a 1E frontage hit with 6
figs @ 4 -2 (LTS) +2 (Imp close) = 18
Reg. C MI LTS, Sh stand @3 w/ 6 figs = 15. The hoplites are pushed
back. On the second bound, the JLS aremed troops are a 5 w/6= 24 whicle
the hoplites are still a 3 w/6 = 15; now the hoplites are disordered.
Goodbye.

I think you know where this is going and you can all do the numbers.
Here's the kicker, though:

Against Companions, or any L armed troops, or any 1.5 rank JLS cavalry
chargeing imp.:

L armed Cav hits at a 5 (4 + 3-2) w/5 =20
Hoplites strike back at 5 (4 +1 for facing Imp.) w/6 = 24
I grant you that the Hoplites win; I merely point out that 1/3rd of the
time, if the Cav rolls up one or more, the hoplites loose, and given the
difference in outcomes (break off move vs. disordered pushback and
eventual rout...)

1.5 rank JLS armed Cav hits at a 6-4=4 and is in a worse case, but
again, if the hoplites are the typical MI variety, is even with the L
and thus very formidable.

Hmmm.... is there a single case of hoplites broken by the frontal charge
of any horse in period? (And please note that SHK and SHC can both
charge home with relative impunity; perhaps not a period problem, but a
very real one for the Warrior player and not so very far out of period,
either!)

Perhaps more importantly, because of the power of missile troops in and
out of period, let's look at shooting.

HI hoplites can generally hold their own; although 22 figures of
shooting can cause a 4E unit to stand halted indefinitiely (or put
another way, 4E of lose order shooters and another 3E of skirmishers)
these situations are relatively hard to arrange. However, MI hoplites
are in trouble; at 80 paces, 4E of Persians will hold 4Es of hoplites in
permanent check.

This is not correct; it does not represent the in-period experience of
hoplite warfare. The hoplon, that enormous convex, bronze faced shield,
rendered even the naked hoplite nearly impervious to missile fire from
the front (see Xenophon).

Granted, the hoplites can deepen their phalanx to absorb shooting; but
this tends to shorten their line, rendering their already vulnerable
flanks even more vulnerable...
In closing (at least for today) I don't want to over-state my case.
Hoplite armies were destroyed throughout the period (often by morale
collapse, and any number of other failures) or just plain beaten. I
merely wish to argue that, like the famed and justly deserving Catalans,
they deserve a helping hand from the list writers. Making hoplites the
same as, say, Flemish medieval spearmen seems to do a disservice to the
success of the hoplite over a fairly extensive period of time and
terrain and equates two very different levels of troop training and
batlefield flexibility. Can they be helped? Can they have a list rule
like the equally downtrodden Roman Legionaire to rescue them from
historical obscurity?

Chris Cameron
Toronto


>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

<<Making hoplites the
same as, say, Flemish medieval spearmen seems to do a disservice to the
success of the hoplite over a fairly extensive period of time and
terrain and equates two very different levels of troop training and
batlefield flexibility. Can they be helped?>>

In principle, I agree. As we send OW off to the printers and Scott delves more
into hoplites, he and I will be sparring over this. And I, like Chris, would
love to hear what the players have to say on this issue. But to help focus the
discussion more, let's try and throw in some real game-mechanic recommendations
as we go along.

<< Can they have a list rule
like the equally downtrodden Roman Legionaire to rescue them from
historical obscurity?>>

This is certainly possible. It is important to get these guys 'right' and I
plan to be as conscientious about them as I think we have been in looking at
such forces as the Swiss, Romans and Mongols.

Remember, though, the key - as it has been with these other similar situations -
is to make sure we are trying to get these lists to perform as they did against
their historical opponents. No need to recommend a rule just so hoplites will
do better vs SHK - it won't get any real consideration.

So, try these as some initial discussion points -

-Hoplite LTS gives out a -3 vice -2 at first contact.

AND/OR

-Hoplite LTS is two full ranks all of the time...

Jon the pot-stirrer

[Todd Schneider]

I was under the impression most Hoplites were Irr in nature. I haven't
looked at or studied the NASAMW lists and other books out there, so if I
am wrong please let me know.

How about a rule similar to the "Roman Rule" that says a Hoplite unit
may never have it's charge cancelled, and an exception...

Todd


JonCleaves@... wrote:

> <<Making hoplites the
> same as, say, Flemish medieval spearmen seems to do a disservice to the
> success of the hoplite over a fairly extensive period of time and
> terrain and equates two very different levels of troop training and
> batlefield flexibility. Can they be helped?>>
>
> In principle, I agree. As we send OW off to the printers and Scott
> delves more into hoplites, he and I will be sparring over this. And
> I, like Chris, would love to hear what the players have to say on this
> issue. But to help focus the discussion more, let's try and throw in
> some real game-mechanic recommendations as we go along.
>
> << Can they have a list rule
> like the equally downtrodden Roman Legionaire to rescue them from
> historical obscurity?>>
>
> This is certainly possible. It is important to get these guys 'right'
> and I plan to be as conscientious about them as I think we have been
> in looking at such forces as the Swiss, Romans and Mongols.
>
> Remember, though, the key - as it has been with these other similar
> situations - is to make sure we are trying to get these lists to
> perform as they did against their historical opponents. No need to
> recommend a rule just so hoplites will do better vs SHK - it won't get
> any real consideration.
>
> So, try these as some initial discussion points -
>
> -Hoplite LTS gives out a -3 vice -2 at first contact.
>
> AND/OR
>
> -Hoplite LTS is two full ranks all of the time...
>
> Jon the pot-stirrer
>
>
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[Ewan McNay]

No actual useful comment (hence trimming); just kudos for such a
thoughtful post .

Christian and Sarah wrote:

> Some thoughts on Hoplites

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:

> So, try these as some initial discussion points -
>
> -Hoplite LTS gives out a -3 vice -2 at first contact.

This seems odd, unless simulating some psychological effect.

> AND/OR
>
> -Hoplite LTS is two full ranks all of the time...

Seems fine (and very limited in actual effect).

>
> Jon the pot-stirrer
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Tim Grimmett]

Some lists already have a similar 2 full rank provision.

How about 2 full ranks and a half for 3rd rank if charging/countercharging.

In between Scotts and pikemen and forced into deeper ranks (probably 2 x3).

Other options: do not recoil disordered if facing mounted (but in the examples
given, foot opponents are the problem, not mounted).

But I like the optimal countercharge option as well.

Another thought, as Keegan describes them in History of Warfare, hoplites sound
like a cause of unease for foot opponents.

My initial thoughts....



.

JonCleaves@... wrote:
<<Making hoplites the
same as, say, Flemish medieval spearmen seems to do a disservice to the
success of the hoplite over a fairly extensive period of time and
terrain and equates two very different levels of troop training and
batlefield flexibility. Can they be helped?>>

In principle, I agree. As we send OW off to the printers and Scott delves more
into hoplites, he and I will be sparring over this. And I, like Chris, would
love to hear what the players have to say on this issue. But to help focus the
discussion more, let's try and throw in some real game-mechanic recommendations
as we go along.

<< Can they have a list rule
like the equally downtrodden Roman Legionaire to rescue them from
historical obscurity?>>

This is certainly possible. It is important to get these guys 'right' and I
plan to be as conscientious about them as I think we have been in looking at
such forces as the Swiss, Romans and Mongols.

Remember, though, the key - as it has been with these other similar situations -
is to make sure we are trying to get these lists to perform as they did against
their historical opponents. No need to recommend a rule just so hoplites will
do better vs SHK - it won't get any real consideration.

So, try these as some initial discussion points -

-Hoplite LTS gives out a -3 vice -2 at first contact.

AND/OR

-Hoplite LTS is two full ranks all of the time...

Jon the pot-stirrer


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Schneider]

Meaning no impetuous charges against them unless you're eager (or A's),
right? Looks interesting...

Todd


Tim Grimmett wrote:

>
>
> Another thought, as Keegan describes them in History of Warfare,
> hoplites sound like a cause of unease for foot opponents.
>
> My initial thoughts....

[Tim Grimmett]

HTW will still be an issue and I do not know if they historically faced HTW
opponents.

Another option would be to modulate the ranks eligible to fight and allow
Hoplites to use 2HCT factors against foot--still keeping them LTS for other game
purposes. Make them pay a little extra for the benefits like other 2HCT units.

Todd <thresh1642@...> wrote:
Meaning no impetuous charges against them unless you're eager (or A's),
right? Looks interesting...

Todd


Tim Grimmett wrote:

>
>
> Another thought, as Keegan describes them in History of Warfare,
> hoplites sound like a cause of unease for foot opponents.
>
> My initial thoughts....



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[Todd Schneider]

I don't beleive they did. Romans of course used HTW against the
Macedonians and successors states, but those formations were Phalanx and
not Hoplite. I seem to recall reading somewhere the development of HTW
came about as a way to disrupt Hoplite type Shield Walls and Barbarians
charges, Javeleins were pretty ineffective in that regard.

Hoplites vs.Hoplites is going to be a push, until one side rolls up, the
other rolls down and a shaken or broken result is acheived. Which is
also pretty historical, most Hoplite battles were "shield wall" pushes
until one side gave way (The battle scene in front of Troy is a pretty
good example of this IMO)..

Until Marathon the Persians had beaten Hoplite formations on a pretty
regular basis, by not attacking them from the front, concentrating on
one point of the shield wall to break the formation, and using missile
fire to disorder the Shield Wall before contact. Which also makes sense
from a "Warrior" tactics POV as well. How acccomodating your Hoplite
playing opponent will be in this regard though...


Tim Grimmett wrote:

> HTW will still be an issue and I do not know if they historically
> faced HTW opponents.
>
> Another option would be to modulate the ranks eligible to fight and
> allow Hoplites to use 2HCT factors against foot--still keeping them
> LTS for other game purposes. Make them pay a little extra for the
> benefits like other 2HCT units.
>
> Todd <thresh1642@...> wrote:
> Meaning no impetuous charges against them unless you're eager (or A's),
> right? Looks interesting...
>
> Todd
>
>
> Tim Grimmett wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Another thought, as Keegan describes them in History of Warfare,
> > hoplites sound like a cause of unease for foot opponents.
> >
> > My initial thoughts....

[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 14/12/2004 16:56:57 GMT Standard Time, JonCleaves@...
writes:

-Hoplite LTS gives out a -3 vice -2 at first contact.

AND/OR

-Hoplite LTS is two full ranks all of the time...

Jon the pot-stirrer



* i like both the above but i feel that all list rules should have a points
cost. something to consider?
maybe a point per element for typical list rules.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

My two 'personal' favorites at the moment are (given that a precise definition
of which hoplites we are talking about would be a necessity):

All opponents are -1 vs hoplites in hth combat.

hoplites are a cause of unease to opponents who charge them.

Comments?

Jon

[Tim Grimmett]

IB LMI with a HTW still vaporize these guys; this may be historical. Don't
know.

Let me know what you'd like to see experimented with and I can use it as an
X-rule in our upcoming tournament. I'll play Greeks....

I hope to get you something on the results of the 120p movement for close order
X-rule over the holidays. (Hint:it is ugly for irregular LMI and elephants)

JonCleaves@... wrote:
My two 'personal' favorites at the moment are (given that a precise definition
of which hoplites we are talking about would be a necessity):

All opponents are -1 vs hoplites in hth combat.

hoplites are a cause of unease to opponents who charge them.

Comments?

Jon

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[joncleaves]

IB LMI with a HTW still vaporize these guys; this may be historical. Don't
know.>>

Not worried about how moogs do vs them.

<<Let me know what you'd like to see experimented with and I can use it as an
X-rule in our upcoming tournament. I'll play Greeks....>>

I'd like to see the two I mentioned played. -1 for opponents in hand to hand
and a cause of unease for those who charge them. classical, big shield
hoplites, we are talking here.

J

[Tim Grimmett]

Wasn't thinking of moogs: were there Greek colonies in Spain that would have
faced HTW-armed Celtiberians?

JonCleaves@... wrote:IB LMI with a HTW still vaporize these guys; this may
be historical. Don't know.>>

Not worried about how moogs do vs them.

<<Let me know what you'd like to see experimented with and I can use it as an
X-rule in our upcoming tournament. I'll play Greeks....>>

I'd like to see the two I mentioned played. -1 for opponents in hand to hand
and a cause of unease for those who charge them. classical, big shield
hoplites, we are talking here.

J


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings

Syracuse employed Spanish mercenaries (not Celtiberians I think) who
were used in Greece briefly. They may have been used domestically
against Siciliot Greeks. However I am not sure we know how they
were armed and, being mercenaries, they may well have been used more
as garrisons than line of battle troops.

Not sure at the moment about the use of Carthaginian employed
Spanish against Syracusans/Siciliot Greeks.

Regards

Edward

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Tim Grimmett <grimmetttim@y...>
wrote:
> Wasn't thinking of moogs: were there Greek colonies in Spain that
would have faced HTW-armed Celtiberians?
>
> JonCleaves@a... wrote:IB LMI with a HTW still vaporize these guys;
this may be historical. Don't know.>>
>
> Not worried about how moogs do vs them.
>
> <<Let me know what you'd like to see experimented with and I can
use it as an X-rule in our upcoming tournament. I'll play
Greeks....>>
>
> I'd like to see the two I mentioned played. -1 for opponents in
hand to hand and a cause of unease for those who charge them.
classical, big shield hoplites, we are talking here.
>
> J
>
>
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