Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

--- On May 16 J. Murphy said: ---

> Later Polish, Late Period 1454-1510
> 17 units @ 1,602 points, 95 scouting points
> 1x CinC 2E Reg A/C SHK/HK L,Sh (PA std) @ 208
> 1x Sub 2E Reg A/C SHK/HK L,Sh (P std) @ 138
> 4x 2E Irr B/C SHK/HK L,Sh @ 109
> 1x 6E Irr C LC CB @ 73
> 2x 4E Irr C HI/MI 2HCT,Sh/JLS,Sh @ 97
> 1x 10E Irr C LI B,Sh @ 85
> 2x 4E Irr B LC L,JLS,Sh @ 89
> 1x 6E Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh/B @ 91
> 3x 2E Reg C LC JLS,B,Sh/B @ 42
> 1x 4E Irr C LC L,Sh @ 73

*Sigh*

So, there's nothing about this list that should inspire even the remotest
tingling of fear in an open tournament opponent. You have some expensive
mediocrity here surrounded by a handful of less than stellar SHK. I have some
specific comments below, but I've been trying to think through what generally
went wrong here, and this is the best theory I have to offer:

It's a huge mistake to build an army where LC are required to absorb shooting
bound after bound. They suck in this role, being much more vulnerable than LI
or, frankly, most infantry, and costing more to boot. In the other version of
the list we've been looking at from you, the theory is to buy a mass of knights
-- 8 or 9 units -- and have enough screen to suck off shooting until the knight
wave launches. LC are perfectly viable in that role, particularly Irr B LC,
since they have to absorb generally only one full round of prep shooting, maybe
two in certain spots, before the knights ride off and turn the game into
something other than a shooting match.

With only 6 knight units you are now playing a more "classical" game of
maneuver, where your skirmishers and line troops are going to have to survive
on and dominate the field for several bounds to achieve the line ups your
handful of knights need. That means several bounds of prep shooting exchange
your LC will have to endure, and they just aren't good at it.

If you aren't aware of it, here's the fundamental problem: if your LC take 3 CPF
in prep shooting, they must waver or recall. If they are Cs -- and often uneasy
Cs -- you really have to recall. This now puts you in a "must rally" situation
from which, being disordered, you will not recover until the end of the next
bound. If you cannot eliminate the source of the 3 CPF you just received, then
you're very likely to take at least 2 CPF next bound, while still in that "must
rally" situation. Hence next bound you _have_ to take the waver test; no
choice. If you take another 3 CPF you'll take two waver tests (test-or-recall
in a must rally, and 2nd combat cause of disorder). If you fail even one of
these, your opponent will surely have someone in position to launch a charge,
and you get to take _another_ waver test for shaken charged. Heck, you could
take another 3 CPF, fail both wavers, and rout off without your opponent so
much as charging.

Thus it's all too easy to have LC who take 3 CPF on Bound 2,and are routing past
your entire army on Bound 3 because of the additional prep shooting punishment
they've taken on Bound 3....

You say you want your LC to present itself as shooters to front. Hey, as your
opponent I want exactly the same thing.

> A bit of excuses for the way I do these...
>
> First off I think C class HK is fine for a rear rank, even for the
> generals. Best bang for the buck. Admittedly, however, this is not to
> everyone's taste. But for me there are too many other goodies in this
> army I want to spend the extra points to upgrade the back rankers to
> B class EHK.
>

We've been over this before, and I think it's a big mistake. We'll just have to
agree to disagree, but I think after the first 2 or 3 waver tests you've taken
with those knights, you'll begin to wish you'd bought them all as Bs.

>
> I took all 3 L-armed LC units you can get in the late sub-period.
> They can clear smaller LI units and beat up on most LC except the
> dreaded 1.5-rank JLS types (anyone get _those_ with SHK), break-
> through against larger LI setting them up for other LC to follow-on.
> Otherwise they do all the stuff every LC unit does - pin and screen.

How are you ever going to get to my LI with your LC? If you charge from outside
80p, I'll just evade and likely get away. You may not even get that charge off,
since, with some 4-stand shooters on the line (a common occurence in open
tournament play these days) I may well be shooting you for 2 CPF once you're
inside 240p. If you close to within 80p where you have a real chance of running
down my LI, you're definitely taking 2, maybe 3 CPF in prep. Not a good thing
for you. So take all the lances you want for your LC. If you aren't using them,
they're just points wasted.

> The 6E missile-suckers are the LC CB and the very-optimized Cumans.
> These function as "shooters to front" drawing enemy missile fire away
> from the knights and "pseudo-Brigans". If the LC CB can ever get into
> skirmish they will be effective shooters, but at least they can
> fulfill a role this way instead of being a waste of 41 points at 2E.

Well, see my comments above about the flaw in LC thinking here. Add to that the
mistake of buying _more_ CB-armed LC. That's just throwing good money after
bad. CB-armed LC are not effective shooters against other LC and against LI,
the mostly likely targets they'll face. By the way, why do you think the
CB-armed LC are any harder to get into skirmish than the Cumans??

> That brings up the foot. I like the two "pseudo-Brigans". With "only"
> 6 SHK it gives something to use against pike blocks to get them
> disordered for a SHK finisher, and it provides a good elephant
> counter.

So, let's do the math here. Are these guys actually any good against elephants?
Let's look at two scenarios: the all-too-prevelant Sultanate elephants with LI
on the base, and then Ewan's preferred Seleucid elephants.

Sultanate: Assume 2 models of Irr B el, crew of 3 w/bow, driver w/JLS, 2 LI on
base. More likely you'd be up against a 3 model unit, but I'll give you the
benefit of the doubt here. I'll also assume you can get to 80p before getting
charged, which is possible since the elephants move in the infantry phase of
approaches and you might have the initiative. So:
In prep shooting, the elephants do 12@1 = 18, only a CPF (even if they roll up
2).
Your CinC is somewhere nearby and advancing, you're supported, so you get to
make an impetuous charge. The elephants in turn charge not impetuously.
In support shooting, the elephants do 12@-1 = 9. Not a CPF.
In hth, the elephants do: 10@2 +1 (charging) -1 (facing 2HCT) = 10@2 = 20.
Crew do crew vs. HI = 1 + 1 (JLS) = 2@1 + 2@2 = 7. 20 + 7 = 27.
Your foot does 12@3 (2HCT vs. el or other foot + JLS vs. el) + 1 (impetuous) =
12@4 = 36.
Result: the elephants take 2 CPF doubled to 4, and recoil. They have 6 CPF total
now. Your foot takes 2 CPF (when you throw in support shooting) doubled to 4,
and follow up. They now have 5 CPF total.
Note that if you roll down 1 in hth, or the elephants roll up 1, these results
still obtain. Sounds pretty good, right? Let's look at the next bound, though.
In hth, the elephants do: 10@2 -1 (tired) -1 (facing 2HCT) = 0. 10@0 = 10.
Crew do crew vs. HI = 1 -1 (tired) +2 (shieldless) +1 (JLS) = 6@2 + 3@3 = 20.
10+20 = 30.
Your foot does 12@3 (as before) +1 (following up) -1 (tired) = 12@3 = 30. Now
you break even. If the elephants roll up, or you roll down, you lose. And in
any bound in which you lose you become disordered foot, giving the elephants a
+2 vs. disordered foot and giving the crew a shot at shieldless MI.

Overall result: you'll last around 4 bounds, after which you'll be exhausted
and or routed. You have _zero_ chance of routing the elephants. And this happy
outcome is yours only if you can (a) get to 80p before getting charged, (b) be
supported when you get there, and (c) have your CinC nearby and advancing, (d)
you can match up against a 2 model rather than a 3 model elephant unit. Not
really a matchup I'd get too excited about if I were you.

Seleucids: Assume a 2 model unit of Irr C el crew of 1 w/P, 1 w/B, 1 w/JLS.
Assume you _don't_ get to 80p, as these guys move in the mounted phase, so you
get charged and take it at the halt.

Elephants do 10@2 +1 (charging) -1 (facing 2HCT) = 2. 10@2 = 20.
Crew do crew vs. HI = 1 +1 (JLS) = 2@1 + 2@2= 7. 20 + 7 = 27.
Your foot does 12@3 (2HCT vs. el or other +JLS vs. el) -1 (facing el pike) = 2.
12@2 = 24. Gee, you lose, recoil disordered, and rout next bound. What fun.

Moral of the story: your list has no viable anti-elephant troops. If you want
to stop elephants with Late Poles, you need 4-stand shooters, preferably also
with JLS. And, as a matter of fact, that's a troop type you can get.

> I still like my list with the 2 more SHK units and the 4th Tartars
> instead of the HI/MI and the Serbs. But this list plays at a less
> hectic pace and gives a better open competition balance.

I like your other list much better. I suspect Ewan and Frank would agree with me
on that. The other list has a clear purpose, and every unit in the army has a
role in serving that purpose. This list has no defining tactical purpose, and
thus has a bunch of units that do some things half-assed, nothing really well,
and do not work together particularly well.

> The item sorely missing versus Frank's list is really the
> concentrated 4/stand firepower. I'm okay with that here because the
> function of shooting here is more to neutralize enemy shooting in
> preperation for a shock attack rather than to disorder or waver
> someone, although that would be nice.

I think you've _very_ seriously underestimated the power of 4-stand shooters,
both as a tool in your own army, and in terms of what they will do to a list
configured as you have this one.

To sum up:

Against a typical knight army, your opponent will have at least as many knights
as you do, and thus be able to keep your knights from effectively threatening
his support troops. Your opponent will likely have 4-stand shooters and LI with
bow in some quantity, and thus will shred your LC with shooting. Your 2HCT foot
are no threat to the knights (and are indeed quite vulnerable to knights), and
everything else will just skirmish/counter away from them.

Against a typical elephant army, your opponent's elephants can beat
_everything_ in your army. Everything. If he's playing an Indian-style army like
Sultanate of Delhi, then he'll have enough shooting to make a mess of your LC.
If he's playing a pike/elephant army, the pikes can push back everything in your
army with the possible exception of the 2HCT guys, and the elephants will
steam-roll them.

Against a typical Roman army you have some chances, but have to be very careful.
Your 2HCT guys are quite vulnerable to Roman HTW, and a Roman army with a
typical amount of shooting will really make a mess of your LC.

Not a very encouraging prognosis, I know, but I hope it helps.


-Mark, the Brute

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/17/2004 2:41:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

> If you aren't aware of it, here's the fundamental problem: if your LC take 3
CPF
> in prep shooting, they must waver or recall. If they are Cs -- and often
uneasy
> Cs -- you really have to recall. This now puts you in a "must rally" situation
> from which, being disordered, you will not recover until the end of the next
> bound. If you cannot eliminate the source of the 3 CPF you just received, then
> you're very likely to take at least 2 CPF next bound, while still in that
"must
> rally" situation. Hence next bound you _have_ to take the
> waver test; no
> choice.>>

Mark, I am really glad you did this. When I read John's list I reacted strongly
to the amount of LC (given that we are talking open 14.0 tourney here) but could
not find a way to gainsay it without seeming heavy handed. As you blew that
worry off, lol, it allowed you to get right to the point...