Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Phil Gardocki]

In a recent Warrior game we came up with four perceived aberrations that we wanted to check on.  Our copy of Warrior is from 3/1/01, and so is dated, and these issues may have been dealt with.

The first has to do behaviors with expendables and enemy units in impassable terrain, in this example, a Scythed Chariot and an enemy unit on a rocky steep hill.  The hill is impassable to wheels.  Does the chariot:
A) ignore it, go for the next closest unit?
B) Approach to the closest point to the unit on impassable terrain and then stare longingly?
C) Approach to charge reach, and charge.  

The next has to do with a scythed chariot that charged and contacted a LI unit.  It hit with 16 fatigue and is Exhausted, Shaken and Disordered.  It also did 3 to 1 to the LI.  Does the Chariot:
A) Burst through the LI, as allowed in the after combat rules? B) Is destroyed before burst through, as in the expendable rules?
C) Burst through and then destroyed?

The next has to do with interpenetrating.  In Rev 7, I knew where I stood on interpenetrating.  Warrior has changed the rules considerably.  During an approach, a LMI unit interpenetrated a Disordered LI unit.  Under Warrior, The LMI is disordered as interpenetrating disordered friends.  Is this what you intended?  Did you notice that LMI can interpenetrate Elephants, and not be disordered, but Chariots are?

If a chariot or elephant driver is armed, do they fight on the first round of contact?

Thanks
Phil G.

[joncleaves]

Mark,
I am looking at running a Warrior Tourney at Tabletop Games in either late
October or early November and then regularly there from that point. I'll let
you know here as soon as I work out the dates with Phil.

Jon

Perhaps anamolies, not aberrations? When are there going to be some games in KC or Des Moines ? October or February cons???

-----Original Message-----From: PHGamer@aol.com [mailto:PHGamer@aol.com]Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 9:03 PMTo: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.comSubject: [WarriorRules] Questions on expendables and interpenetrations.In a recent Warrior game we came up with four perceived aberrations that we wanted to check on.  Our copy of Warrior is from 3/1/01, and so is dated, and these issues may have been dealt with. The first has to do behaviors with expendables and enemy units in impassable terrain, in this example, a Scythed Chariot and an enemy unit on a rocky steep hill.  The hill is impassable to wheels.  Does the chariot: A) ignore it, go for the next closest unit? B) Approach to the closest point to the unit on impassable terrain and then stare longingly? C) Approach to charge reach, and charge.   The next has to do with a scythed chariot that charged and contacted a LI unit.  It hit with 16 fatigue and is Exhausted, Shaken and Disordered.  It also did 3 to 1 to the LI.  Does the Chariot: A) Burst through the LI, as allowed in the after combat rules? B) Is destroyed before burst through, as in the expendable rules? C) Burst through and then destroyed? The next has to do with interpenetrating.  In Rev 7, I knew where I stood on interpenetrating.  Warrior has changed the rules considerably.  During an approach, a LMI unit interpenetrated a Disordered LI unit.  Under Warrior, The LMI is disordered as interpenetrating disordered friends.  Is this what you intended?  Did you notice that LMI can interpenetrate Elephants, and not be disordered, but Chariots are? If a chariot or elephant driver is armed, do they fight on the first round of contact? Thanks Phil G. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.comYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[joncleaves]

I will answer this question when I get back to my rulebook and have a minute,
but please first see if the 15 July draft on the egroup has the answer.
J

[joncleaves]

<< The first has to do behaviors with expendables and enemy units in impassable
terrain, in this example, a Scythed Chariot and an enemy unit on a rocky
> steep hill. The hill is impassable to wheels. >>

Expendables do have Rush orders. 4.51 says they have to charge a legal target.
Enemy in impassable terrain is not a legal target. Therefore, Rush orders
dictate it would move after another, legal, target.

<<The next has to do with a scythed chariot that charged and contacted a LI
unit. It hit with 16 fatigue and is Exhausted, Shaken and Disordered. >>

Expendables are destroyed IMMEDIATELY when they become exhausted. I have
clarified this in the rules. Thanks.

<< The next has to do with interpenetrating. In Rev 7, I knew where I stood on
interpenetrating. Warrior has changed the rules considerably.>>

Well, Warrior *is* a stand-alone game. But I don't remember changing anything
basic about interpenetrating from the WRG engine.

<<During an approach, a LMI unit interpenetrated a Disordered LI unit. Under
Warrior,
> The LMI is disordered as interpenetrating disordered friends. Is this what you
intended? Did you notice that LMI can interpenetrate Elephants, and not
> be disordered, but Chariots are? >>

Don't think any of this is a 'change'. I will research further before I give a
final answer.

<< If a chariot or elephant driver is armed, do they fight on the first round of
contact? >>

Two crew fight the bound charging or charged. One can be an armed driver.

Jon

[joncleaves]

It is possible that a scythed chariot, faced with a closest enemy unit in
terrain impassable to it, would have to 'sit' until some part of its
condition changed.
Jon

[Patrick Byrne]

Correct me if I'm wrong but......
Once the chariot is with-in Approach range, he cannot 'end further away from the
nearest known enemy body than it started'. It doesn't matter whether or not
the enemy is beyond impassable terrain (6.13).
Under Rush orders, you can't retire, (4.43). So this chariot unit, who can not
declare a charge on a legal target can Counter if he meets the requirements
listed under 6.14.

It appears though that once successfully Countered, the chariot would hope that
a new approach move would allow him to move onto another target.

I must say that I fail to see how the chariot can just pack up his baggage and
move to a new target. His move must still be executed within the rules.
Correct? (in this case, Approaches (6.13) and Counters
(6.14))

I would be most interested to see the tournament resolution if the chariot ended
up unable to charge something that it could not Counter away from. Sounds like
a good tactic to use with LI; tie that scythed
chariot up.
-PB



JonCleaves@... wrote:

> << The first has to do behaviors with expendables and enemy units in
impassable terrain, in this example, a Scythed Chariot and an enemy unit on a
rocky
> > steep hill. The hill is impassable to wheels. >>
>
> Expendables do have Rush orders. 4.51 says they have to charge a legal
target. Enemy in impassable terrain is not a legal target. Therefore, Rush
orders dictate it would move after another, legal, target.
> Jon

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Patrick,
Expendables cannot counter. I understand and
empathize with your point though. What are drivers of
scythed chariot units to do?


Kelly

--- Patrick Byrnes <cuan@...> wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong but......
> Once the chariot is with-in Approach range, he
> cannot 'end further away from the nearest known
> enemy body than it started'. It doesn't matter
> whether or not the enemy is beyond impassable
> terrain (6.13).
> Under Rush orders, you can't retire, (4.43). So
> this chariot unit, who can not declare a charge on a
> legal target can Counter if he meets the
> requirements listed under 6.14.
>
> It appears though that once successfully Countered,
> the chariot would hope that a new approach move
> would allow him to move onto another target.
>
> I must say that I fail to see how the chariot can
> just pack up his baggage and move to a new target.
> His move must still be executed within the rules.
> Correct? (in this case, Approaches (6.13) and
> Counters
> (6.14))
>
> I would be most interested to see the tournament
> resolution if the chariot ended up unable to charge
> something that it could not Counter away from.
> Sounds like a good tactic to use with LI; tie that
> scythed
> chariot up.
> -PB
>
>
>
> JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> > << The first has to do behaviors with expendables
> and enemy units in impassable terrain, in this
> example, a Scythed Chariot and an enemy unit on a
> rocky
> > > steep hill. The hill is impassable to wheels. >>
> >
> > Expendables do have Rush orders. 4.51 says they
> have to charge a legal target. Enemy in impassable
> terrain is not a legal target. Therefore, Rush
> orders dictate it would move after another, legal,
> target.
> > Jon
>
>
>
>


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[scott holder]

I would be most interested to see the tournament resolution if the chariot
ended up unable to charge something that it could not Counter away from.

>I've adjudicated this for years at tourneys. For starters, it's usually
pretty clear at least a bound ahead of time if a "closest" target is in
unpassable (for chariots) terrain. If that's the case (and 99.9999% of the
time it has been), then I direct the player running the expendable in question
to find the next closest unit that's not in impassible terrain and go for that
target.

Scott
List Ho

[Chris Bump]

Scott and Jon,

It is just such interpretations that are mentioned no where in the rules and
probably should have some kind of all encompassing caveat mentioned. Not
suggesting a rule change, just a tap into Scott's mind and his
interpretations put into print.

Chris

[joncleaves]

Ok, I will look at it, but I do not agree that Scott 'interpreted' anything.
He restated the rule. You can't go into certain terrain with a chariot.
That means it is possible to find a scythed chariot (which is also an
expendable) closest to an enemy in impassable terrain with no reason to
counter. That would suck, but it doesn't mean because it sucks it needs a
new rule.

[joncleaves]

While Scott and I talk offline - let me clarify. What I thought Scott was
saying was that he was warning players not to get scythed chariots stuck in
such a fashion, not letting them choose second closest.

We are talking about it, and we will let you all know. Be warned that I am
philosophically against flexible expendables. They should be awesome if used
under superbly ideal conditions, risky in average situations and downright
dangerous to only yourself if used in any ahistorical or foolish manner.

[joncleaves]

Ok, so much for offline. :)

Please note everyone that our terrain system for tourneys simulates both
generals vying to force a battle on terrain favorable to them. So if an army
with scythed chariots is 'forced' to fight on unfavorable ground, too bad.

Scott's better argument is that there is evidence that scythed drivers had
control enough to veer away from units in impassable terrain and head for
someone else. Scott and I are jointly writing a rule that clarifies this.

Ok, Scotty, how about back to offline?
J

[Don Coon]

>
>
> I would be most interested to see the tournament resolution if the chariot
> ended up unable to charge something that it could not Counter away from.
>
> >I've adjudicated this for years at tourneys. For starters, it's usually
> pretty clear at least a bound ahead of time if a "closest" target is in
> unpassable (for chariots) terrain. If that's the case (and 99.9999% of
the
> time it has been), then I direct the player running the expendable in
question
> to find the next closest unit that's not in impassible terrain and go for
that
> target.

But see Scott, you are never in my kitchen to adjudicate this (we have
looked. One time I even checked behind the tupperware in the fridge, but no
Scott). The rules must stand alone and at times they do not. IMHO a judge
is there to settle rule disputes, ideally by pointing the two disagreeing
parties to the right passages. I admire your knowledge of the game, but
your occasional disregard for the written rule in favor of "how you know it
to be" can be disquieting at times, especially to non tournament players or
players not blessed by your presence. This chariot thing is a case of this.
If your above para was merely a suggestion to Jon about how to word the
rule, I most humbly apologize. If it was, as I think your posts often are,
an INTERP, then I stand by my reply.

Don

[Don Coon]

> Ok, I will look at it, but I do not agree that Scott 'interpreted'
anything.
> He restated the rule. You can't go into certain terrain with a chariot.
> That means it is possible to find a scythed chariot (which is also an
> expendable) closest to an enemy in impassable terrain with no reason to
> counter. That would suck, but it doesn't mean because it sucks it needs a
> new rule.

I agree 100% with you Jon. The rules are clear, and no rule is needed. But
Scott basically said, anticipate that the chariot would get stuck, and
instead approach the second closest enemy. This is not per the rules. The
rules are clear as written. That chariot much get closer to the forbidden
unit. When the chariot can no longer get closer due to terrain it is stuck.
Unable to approach, counter, or retire. I do not want, nor did I ask for a
new rule. Scott however said he adjudicated this situation DIFFERENTLY than
the stated rules. That is what woke me from my slumber. An interp is what
I call it.

Don