Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ed Forbes]

Hi Jon,

Reading 8.7, I see that all overhead shooting other than that previously
listed is not permitted. Bolt shooters on carts are not in this
previously listed.

The next paragraph of the rules seems to say that bolt shooters on carts
can shoot over intervening troops against elephants.

1) can bolt shooters on carts fire overhead at elephants even though they
are not listed as being permitted to shoot over another body, with both
on the same level?

2) If bolt shooters on carts can fire overhead, are targets other than
elephants allowed, with both on the same level?

3) I read 8.7 that stone /bolt shooters can not fire over another body to
a target on a rise, low ridge, or knoll, but stone / bolt shooters on
these same higher terrain can target these same over another body. They
can be shot, but can not shoot back if over intervening troops. Is this
correct?

4) Stone / bolt shooters can only shoot over intervening targets from the
level to those on a hill or rampart? Hill is not the same as rise, low
ridge, or knoll?

5) For bolt shooters on carts: "Bolt shooters on carts....When higher,
such as on a rise or hill, they can both see and be seen.."
I do not see the intent here. What is different than with any other
stone / bolt shooter in the same situation?

Thanks,

Ed

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[joncleaves]

<<Reading 8.7, I see that all overhead shooting other than that previously
listed is not permitted. Bolt shooters on carts are not in this previously
listed.>>

That's because cart-mounting does not change the ability of a bolt shooter to
shoot overhead.

<<The next paragraph of the rules seems to say that bolt shooters on carts can
shoot over intervening troops against elephants. >>

Only from a height (low rise, knoll, hill, etc).
The bottom line is, being on a cart does not make a bolt shooter able to shoot
overhead all on its own. It makes the artillery faster and able to shoot all
round, but not overhead.

<<1) can bolt shooters on carts fire overhead at elephants even though they are
not listed as being permitted to shoot over another body, with both on the same
level?>>

Yes.

<<2) If bolt shooters on carts can fire overhead, are targets other than
elephants allowed, with both on the same level?>>

No.

<<3) I read 8.7 that stone /bolt shooters can not fire over another body to a
target on a rise, low ridge, or knoll, but stone / bolt shooters on these same
higher terrain can target these same over another body. They can be shot, but
can not shoot back if over intervening troops. Is this correct?>>

True. If I understood all that.... :)

<<4) Stone / bolt shooters can only shoot over intervening targets from the
level to those on a hill or rampart? Hill is not the same as rise, low ridge,
or knoll?>>

Correct and correct.

<<5) For bolt shooters on carts: "Bolt shooters on carts....When higher, such
as on a rise or hill, they can both see and be seen.."
I do not see the intent here. What is different than with any other stone /
bolt shooter in the same situation?>>

Well, nothing the way that is worded. We will look at that one.

J

[joncleaves]

I will say, though, to both Scott and Ed, that Ed found some language in that
rule (8.7) that could be clearer and we'll be cleaning that up for the next
iteration of the clarification sheet.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

I might add that this is *no* different than before. I realize that
some LIR players from certain areas chose to ignore both my rulings and
those contained in the old NASAMW Interp booklet regarding the
(in)ability of LIR bolt shooters on carts to fire over troops at other
troops on the same level. In fact, I warned some players (after
catching them later doing the same thing after being told not to) that
if they did it again, I'd throw them out of the tournament and not
"invite" them back in the future. I even went so far as to make sure
their next round opponent knew about how bolt shooters on carts were
*supposed* to work just in case it happened to come up in their game.

Happily, it's now clearly in the rules. If I *ever* catch someone doing
this in a tourney I run, see previous paragraph.

Scott
Surly Ump Ho

>>> eforbes100@... 5/5/02 12:27:00 AM >>>
Hi Jon,

Reading 8.7, I see that all overhead shooting other than that previously
listed is not permitted. Bolt shooters on carts are not in this
previously listed.

The next paragraph of the rules seems to say that bolt shooters on carts
can shoot over intervening troops against elephants.

1) can bolt shooters on carts fire overhead at elephants even though
they
are not listed as being permitted to shoot over another body, with both
on the same level?

2) If bolt shooters on carts can fire overhead, are targets other than
elephants allowed, with both on the same level?

3) I read 8.7 that stone /bolt shooters can not fire over another body
to
a target on a rise, low ridge, or knoll, but stone / bolt shooters on
these same higher terrain can target these same over another body. They
can be shot, but can not shoot back if over intervening troops. Is this
correct?

4) Stone / bolt shooters can only shoot over intervening targets from
the
level to those on a hill or rampart? Hill is not the same as rise, low
ridge, or knoll?

5) For bolt shooters on carts: "Bolt shooters on carts....When higher,
such as on a rise or hill, they can both see and be seen.."
I do not see the intent here. What is different than with any other
stone / bolt shooter in the same situation?

Thanks,

Ed

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[Ewan McNay]

"Holder, Scott " wrote:
>
> I might add that this is *no* different than before. I realize that
> some LIR players from certain areas chose to ignore both my rulings and
> those contained in the old NASAMW Interp booklet regarding the
> (in)ability of LIR bolt shooters on carts to fire over troops at other
> troops on the same level. In fact, I warned some players (after
> catching them later doing the same thing after being told not to) that
> if they did it again, I'd throw them out of the tournament and not
> "invite" them back in the future. I even went so far as to make sure
> their next round opponent knew about how bolt shooters on carts were
> *supposed* to work just in case it happened to come up in their game.
>
> Happily, it's now clearly in the rules. If I *ever* catch someone doing
> this in a tourney I run, see previous paragraph.
>
> Scott
> Surly Ump Ho

Not that I care, as an avowed non-Roman . But wasn't the real issue
with these things one of visibility? A lot of players ran them with an
attached general to direct fire, but forgot that the general couldn't
see over other troops...

[scott holder]

Not that I care, as an avowed non-Roman . But wasn't the real issue
with these things one of visibility? A lot of players ran them with an
attached general to direct fire, but forgot that the general couldn't
see over other troops...

>He couldn't see over other troops and, more importantly, the bolt
shooters couldn't see over other troops, o yes, it was/is a question of
visibility. Obviously elephants change this to a certain degree (being
targets or in the case of Khmer bolt shooters, shooters). This is one
reason why Jon included the sentence in 8.7 (page 65, last para of 8.7),
namely because certain players simply refused to read/believe the
visibility section. I felt such players were outright cheating,
particularly after being informed of "how it's supposed to be done",
hence, why I'm particularly nasty on this issue. That's also why I felt
the verbage as it exists in Warrior, was succinct. But, if we can add
something that makes it succincter so that I *never* have to see
somebody try to do this again, great:):)

>Before anybody thinks I'm on some great crusade to emasculate LIR, this
particular issue plucks my nerves *only* because of how players
deliberately cheated in games in order to continue using the bolt
shooters as veritable surface-to-surface missiles with a command and
control system only achieved in the post-WW2 era. I could understand
(barely) the first time it came up but when the same players pulled it
again later in a tournament or perhaps a year or two later when they
came back for a tourney, as an umpire, I was fairly pissed off.

>But I'm feeling much better now:):)

Scott
List Ho

So you can shoot at elephants overhead? This isn't a function of whether your
bolt-shooters are on carts or not?

Archers could do the same, I presume?

John Meunier


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can boltshooters form orb?

:)

boyd

> I
> could understand
> (barely) the first time it came up but when the same
> players pulled it
> again later in a tournament or perhaps a year or two
> later when they
> came back for a tourney, as an umpire, I was fairly
> pissed off.
>
> >But I'm feeling much better now:)
>
> Scott
> List Ho
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=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

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[Ed Forbes]

Scott,

Not that I want to get in a pissing contest over a old set of rules that
was amended several times, with some groups using options not in the
published rules, but I want to fully dispel the idea you have that my
question "must" have something to do with cheating.

WRG 7th, Feb. 1986
p30, Shooting by rear ranks or over another body.

4th para. "stone or bolt-shooters can shoot from a ship, vehicle, rise,
low ridge or knoll, or from or to a rampart or hill, or any troops from
or to a tower, over intervening troops who are at least 40 paces distant
from both them and their target."

Now take a close look at the above rule and tell me again that 7th never
allowed stone / bolt shooters in carts to shoot overhead.

My questions to Jon were legitimate and I take affront over your
implications.

Ed

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[joncleaves]

[joncleaves]

Ed

Scott didn't say some middle version of 7th, he said the way he ruled it and the
NASAMW interp book had it. Take affront if you like, but this is why I (despite
Ewan's ill-aimed ribbing) am so hard on not wasting our time worrying about the
way 7th had it. 7th's 6 different editions were played in different ways all
across the English speaking world. But as long as I can remember, NASAMW
tourneys did not allow overhead shooting by cart mounted bolters.

Might you have been playing some earlier or non-NASAMW interped version of 7th?
Sure. Not relevant any longer.

Both of you go to your rooms.

J

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> yes.

Terseness is to be emulated.

But are we now playing Jeopardy? :)

[Ed Forbes]

7th allowed over head fire from carts all the way through. My 7th ed.
rules, Aug 1992 issue reads the same on this issue as my 1986 ed., and if
this was not the last issue of 7th, it was close. NASAMW interps made a
different game than 7th. NASAMW rules and WRG 7th rules do NOT make the
same game. Scott implying that those who go by the published rules on
this issue were cheating and his "...I might add that this is *no*
different than before..." were a bit much and are what set me off.


As the effect is what Warrior is after, over head fire from carts would
give the increased fire power back to the late Roman leg. that was seen
historically and is not shown in the game currently. I would require
them to be attached to the rear of the unit as this comes closest to
simulating how the Romans used them in direct fire support but were not
in the way of combat. I realize that some have vehement opposition to
this, but I belive the facts support my position.

Not an issue until the next revision of Warrior is contemplated, but it
is an issue that will be raised then.


Ed

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[Ed Forbes]

ed
> <<The next paragraph of the rules seems to say that bolt shooters on
> carts can shoot over intervening troops against elephants. >>
>
jon
> Only from a height (low rise, knoll, hill, etc).
> The bottom line is, being on a cart does not make a bolt shooter
> able to shoot overhead all on its own. It makes the artillery
> faster and able to shoot all round, but not overhead.
>
ed
> <<1) can bolt shooters on carts fire overhead at elephants even
> though they are not listed as being permitted to shoot over another
> body, with both on the same level?>>
>
jon
> Yes.

Ok Jon,

I am now totally confused.

Your first statement says only from a height, no overhead shooting at
all, and your second statement says its ok on the same level.

Which is it?

Ed

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[joncleaves]

<<Not an issue until the next revision of Warrior is contemplated, but it is an
issue that will be raised then>>

Don't bother. We will never revise Warrior, that is to say change a rule. We
will clarify our intent and we will possibly reprint with clarifications and
typos fixed in the text, but we will never change the rules.

And LIR hardly need overhead bolt shooter shooting to win.