Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

We have made unbelievable strides in the Warrior community in the two short
years since publication - most of it due to the efforts of those that are
reading this. However, I feel there are four hills still to climb.

One is that we here at FHE need to continue to grow the product line - and at
a faster pace with regards to non-list items than we have. That's on us (me).

Two and three are that we need better representation in regional events and
to be a major player on the international scene. Those issues will be subjects
of other mails.

The fourth area is terrain. Despite what some others have said publicly
recently, there was no question that our overall standard of figure painting and
modeling was on par with or better than other game systems last summer at HCon.
However, one tournament's terrain blew us out of the water.

The primary reason for this, I think, is the combined effect of traveling to
an away con and the terrain feature choosing system of Warrior rule 14.3.
If you have terrain feature choosing, which many Warrior players like, then
the event organizer does not pre-set terrain, instead it is brought by the
player.
Terrain that is brought by the player has to fit in luggage or in the back of
the road trip van. Space being at a premium, combined with the player
wanting different terrain for different opponents, leads to minimalist
solutions.
This leads to things like felt water features and linoleum built-over areas.
And, quite frankly, that stuff looks like crap.
And before you start - I am as guilty as anyone, so don't think I am pointing
any fingers...lol

So.... I think it is time we looked at solutions.

First - we are going to start having awards for best terrain feature. Scott
and I am doing this at Call to Arms. I'd like to have it done at Cold Wars,
but we'll have to see. Definitely we will do it at HCon. The award is for
best constructed terrain feature. Can't use felt. Must be sized for Warrior in
one of its scales. I would encourage folks, especially Fifth Horsemen, to do
the same.

Second - we ought to look ahead at what terrain we plan to use against
various opponents AHEAD of time and then make arrangements to have nice pieces
that
can be transported easily or to have someone in the area of the con or
traveling to it with some room in their car bring it.

Third - we should share ideas here on this group on both how to make nice
pieces AND how to make nice pieces travel well. Unless I get a volunteer, I
will
collect these ideas and periodically gather them into a summary and place
them in the files section and/or highlight them in some way.

Fourth - we ought to share ideas on how to have terrain in place at various
cons that people can draw on to put on good looking games. For example - what
if we had a player relatively local to CW/HCon/Fall In who could store and
bring terrain that some of us chipped in to buy? What if FHE rewarded Fifth
Horsemen who put together terrain packages for use at the cons they worked?
Stuff
like that.

Ok, the shot is across the bow - take it from here.

Jon, the felt boy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Forbes]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:16:03 EST JonCleaves@... writes:
..
> The fourth area is terrain.
> Jon, the felt boy
>

My main problem in this area is that felt works best when pushing stands
around and traveling. I have tried 3 dimensional terrain over the last
30+ years of gameing and have yet to find something that works better
overall than felt. I agree 100% that 3-D looks better, but 3-D terrain
that looks good, takes figures on slopes without sliding, allows movement
in line over it without problems, will take rough use both on table and
in travel, and does not break the bank to buy, can be considered the
"Holy Grail" of gamers.

I have recently been upgrading my felt to a 3-D look. Contours for hills
can be added easily by gluing slightly contrasting layers on top of each
other. This gives a reasonable 3-D look, does not impact play with
stands tipping over or sliding down the slope, and transports well. I
will be doing the same for ditches and gullies. Forest, brush, and such
can be painted to give a 3-D look. I am going to experiment a bit with
this. One thought is to print out a scene, glue it to a flat surface,
and then lacquer it for protection.

As you can tell, I am going to try for as much of a 3-D effect as I can
while staying as close to flat as possible.

Ed

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/20/2004 00:50:24 Central Standard Time,
eforbes100@... writes:
As you can tell, I am going to try for as much of a 3-D effect as I can
while staying as close to flat as possible.>>

I agree that area features need a 'perimeter' in games and that model trees
and such should not be glued down where they can prevent deployment of a unit
as desired.
The best thing I have seen is a flocked piece (styrene, gatorboard, etc) with
some trees placed randomly around on it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One alternative to felt is to buy a grass mat (used to be able to get
a 4' x 8' roll for under $10.00...got a roll in my garage) and cut
out terrain shaped as desired. Paint them green (woods and brush),
brown (hills) or blue (water features) as desired and laqcuer them
afterwards. You can glue multiple layers on top of each other to get
the feel of a hill if you want. The resulting terrain I think looks
a little better than felt as the grass mat surface has texture and it
should travel almost as well as its flat and thin (you just can't
roll it up). One additional suggestion....throw some lichen and some
painted rocks in some plastic bags and spread them around on the
appropriate terrain for added effect (these bags should also not take
much room when traveling). If you combine this style terrain with one
of the commercially available grass mat playing surfaces that roll up
you might have a decent looking playing surface. Oh... and always
try and bring some trees..... :)

P.S. This was what I used to do.....now I use felt terrain when I
travel.....but I always bring trees... :(


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ed C Forbes <eforbes100@j...>
wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:16:03 EST JonCleaves@a... writes:
> ..
> > The fourth area is terrain.
> > Jon, the felt boy
> >
>
> My main problem in this area is that felt works best when pushing
stands
> around and traveling. I have tried 3 dimensional terrain over the
last
> 30+ years of gameing and have yet to find something that works
better
> overall than felt. I agree 100% that 3-D looks better, but 3-D
terrain
> that looks good, takes figures on slopes without sliding, allows
movement
> in line over it without problems, will take rough use both on table
and
> in travel, and does not break the bank to buy, can be considered the
> "Holy Grail" of gamers.
>
> I have recently been upgrading my felt to a 3-D look. Contours for
hills
> can be added easily by gluing slightly contrasting layers on top of
each
> other. This gives a reasonable 3-D look, does not impact play with
> stands tipping over or sliding down the slope, and transports
well. I
> will be doing the same for ditches and gullies. Forest, brush, and
such
> can be painted to give a 3-D look. I am going to experiment a bit
with
> this. One thought is to print out a scene, glue it to a flat
surface,
> and then lacquer it for protection.
>
> As you can tell, I am going to try for as much of a 3-D effect as I
can
> while staying as close to flat as possible.
>
> Ed
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:

> Ok, the shot is across the bow - take it from here.
>
> Jon, the felt boy

Jon I'm very happy to see concern in this area, as I've always felt
that plain felt was a huge detractor from our sport. I have also
realized from personal experience that brining a scale 25mm boat
(much less a village) doubles the effort involved in travel. And
felt is a major building componant.

Here is a possible solution I would ask everyone to consider. I was
at a convention some years back an was taken with the effect of
terrain in a Napoleonic game I participated in there. They used 15mm
figures but the terrain was all 6mm stuff. The effect was visually
appealing as it created a spacial effect.

I've since begun using 15mm terrains for 25mm figures. A village for
example is a square of _painted_ felt with 4 or 5 small 15mm
buildings on it. An ajoining 15mm stone wall adds to the effect.
Overall you get the sense of largeness of the board.


One of the detractors of all terrain systems that continues to
confound me are scrub/brush areas. Nothing on felt is worse, but
loose lumps of lichen on felt is almost as bad. I've painted felt,
used glue drops covered with flocking material on felt, and any other
felt derivation, but nothing satisfies without disrupting element
cohesion. I'd like to hear how others have approached this problem.

I'm also not real happy with hills, but mine give some contour and
height. They are concentric felt rings (again painted for effect)
made of two colors alternating. I then glue a 1/4" thick foam pad
underneath that is small enough to allow a gentle slope from the
centeral felt ring to the edge.


Painting felt. I typically used spray paint to contuor and create
visual effects on felt peices. For example, my village is a rough
square of dark brown felt on which I've painted light brown dirt
roads, ponds, and rubble. It looks nice with a few 15mm buildings on
it. Painting a felt river is a matter of using blue felt
overpainting with lighter blue streaks and some very narrow white
squiggles for rapids effect. I then run a bead of glue down the
edges and add flocking materials unevenly along the edge to create
banks; The entire river is then overpainted with gloss overcoat.

All of my terrain fits easily into a normal briefcase including grown
cloth, so that I can show up with a tool box of figs and a brief case
of terrain ready to game.

Just rambling.
Wanax

What we do that has proven successful and attractive is take cloth (I bought
a canvas drop cloth cheaply from HD) cut it out in random sizes within the
parameters of the terrain sizes as well as cut several circles at the
smallest size (say 240 paces).

For woods:

I've spray painted the cloth Green - Citadel has some overpriced Camo Green
that works well. Then taken spray adhesive and flocked it with a Woodland
Scenics or overpriced Citadel product. This acts as the boundary that will
be used to judge if the body is in the trees or not, etc. We used cloth so
that it was a bit flexible - we sometimes have topography on our tables that
does not influence the game but is simply there to look good.

Then we created several smaller irregular shaped bases out of Masonite
(approximately 2" X 3"), gave them some topography with ?" styro and placed
grass, trees, rocks, underbrush, etc. painted and all - these are designed
not to be inhabited but to be randomly placed on the canvas boundary, and
most importantly to look good.

By placing several stands of trees on each placed boundary, you can move
them or remove them as necessary to accommodate troops without disturbing
the boundary.

Oh, and the circles are used in any number as necessary to create whatever
size or shape we don't have on hand in the other larger shapes - by setting
them on top of and next to one another, they kind of stick together and don'
t move easily - giving us some flexibility in the layout.

Hills, knolls, etc. are created in several sizes and shapes that we choose
from. We hate the look of Hex shaped hills which has unfortunately, to
date, been the most flexible for creating hills.


Scott A McCoppin, AIA
mccoppinarchitecture, pa
704.560.4154
architecture@...

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 7:13 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Terrain Modeling in Warrior Games

In a message dated 2/20/2004 00:50:24 Central Standard Time,
eforbes100@... writes:
As you can tell, I am going to try for as much of a 3-D effect as I can
while staying as close to flat as possible.>>

I agree that area features need a 'perimeter' in games and that model trees
and such should not be glued down where they can prevent deployment of a
unit
as desired.
The best thing I have seen is a flocked piece (styrene, gatorboard, etc)
with
some trees placed randomly around on it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



_____

Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Kollmer]

I like your idea. Ihave used felt(excuse my using th "f" word) and did
somewhat the same thing I have trees mounted on foam board or matt board
and flock the bases of the trees with Scenics Woodland stuff and then put
the trees stands on the felt pieces..Its ok. You can move the tree stands
around so you can move the troops.
I also use Licken. My son hates it and from some of the responses I see he
is not alone. I don't mind it . It gives a brushy look I think.
I have experimented with making villages. I take a base of foam board
usually some rectangle or square shape, mostly 1' x 1' . Spray it green. Cut
strips of foamboard 4mm x ?mm(length you want) put it around the perimeter
of the base . Leave gaps for roads or paths. Then I cut wood dowels and
point one end and hot glue them around the perimeter using the strips as a
support to hold them in place. Stain the dowels with some nice wood color .
Leave points natural .
I then flock the inside how I want it . Usually, I use Scenic stuff to make
the paths a brown color. I also have been using some flock gels from
Renaisssance Ink for some rougher areas. I usually buy some resin houses
from Leo Walsh and use them for the structures.
I tried to once make a small town (4' x 3'), I never finished it . It was
really hard to get the stone walls to come out right. I was really
discouraged with I saw the making of Middle Earth miniatures of Minas
Tirith. I kept saying "How did they do that."
My basic questions is ," Jon, is what I have said ,sound like anything you
want."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott & Tracie McCoppin" <sctrac@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Terrain Modeling in Warrior Games


> What we do that has proven successful and attractive is take cloth (I
bought
> a canvas drop cloth cheaply from HD) cut it out in random sizes within the
> parameters of the terrain sizes as well as cut several circles at the
> smallest size (say 240 paces).
>
> For woods:
>
> I've spray painted the cloth Green - Citadel has some overpriced Camo
Green
> that works well. Then taken spray adhesive and flocked it with a Woodland
> Scenics or overpriced Citadel product. This acts as the boundary that
will
> be used to judge if the body is in the trees or not, etc. We used cloth
so
> that it was a bit flexible - we sometimes have topography on our tables
that
> does not influence the game but is simply there to look good.
>
> Then we created several smaller irregular shaped bases out of Masonite
> (approximately 2" X 3"), gave them some topography with ?" styro and
placed
> grass, trees, rocks, underbrush, etc. painted and all - these are designed
> not to be inhabited but to be randomly placed on the canvas boundary, and
> most importantly to look good.
>
> By placing several stands of trees on each placed boundary, you can move
> them or remove them as necessary to accommodate troops without disturbing
> the boundary.
>
> Oh, and the circles are used in any number as necessary to create whatever
> size or shape we don't have on hand in the other larger shapes - by
setting
> them on top of and next to one another, they kind of stick together and
don'
> t move easily - giving us some flexibility in the layout.
>
> Hills, knolls, etc. are created in several sizes and shapes that we choose
> from. We hate the look of Hex shaped hills which has unfortunately, to
> date, been the most flexible for creating hills.
>
>
> Scott A McCoppin, AIA
> mccoppinarchitecture, pa
> 704.560.4154
> architecture@...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 7:13 AM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Terrain Modeling in Warrior Games
>
> In a message dated 2/20/2004 00:50:24 Central Standard Time,
> eforbes100@... writes:
> As you can tell, I am going to try for as much of a 3-D effect as I can
> while staying as close to flat as possible.>>
>
> I agree that area features need a 'perimeter' in games and that model
trees
> and such should not be glued down where they can prevent deployment of a
> unit
> as desired.
> The best thing I have seen is a flocked piece (styrene, gatorboard, etc)
> with
> some trees placed randomly around on it.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/22/2004 19:28:49 Central Standard Time,
mdevans@... writes:
Could I suggest that people take some photos of outstanding terrain
that they have seen used, and post these into the 'photos' section of
the Group. Not just terrain from Warrior games, but also DBM, WAB or
where-ever. People could then emulate what works best from an
aethestic as well as practical perspective.

Muz>>

This is a super idea. I will begin myself immediately.
J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Could I suggest that people take some photos of outstanding terrain
that they have seen used, and post these into the 'photos' section of
the Group. Not just terrain from Warrior games, but also DBM, WAB or
where-ever. People could then emulate what works best from an
aethestic as well as practical perspective.

Muz