Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Todd Kaeser]

Jon and Scott,

Is there any consideration with the question at hand? What happens to the
Roman unit that has been previously disordered. Should the rear rank be able to
rally itself and fight and then come through counting steady and at first
contact???

Todd

Dave Lauerman <Dlauerman@...> wrote:
Hello;

We had a 3 round 1600 point tourney at The Shield on Saturday. Only 4
people showed up to play, but we played a round-robin and had a good
time anyway. Participants were (in order of finish);

Rich Gagliasso-- Early Imp. Romans--12 points
Dave Lauerman -- Early Seleukids --10 points
John Baumann -- 100 YW English -- 4 points
Ed Forbes -- Marian Romans -- 4 points

The latest version of the Roman infantry rules were a subject of much
headscratching, with the non-romans wondering why the front rank of a
unit you just laid a 3-per on was not counting disordered. This was
particularly perplexing when the unit in question was disordered
before the combat began, stayed disordered during the first round,
and then magically recovered in time for the second round of HTH. At
any rate, a good time was had by all.

There was an amusing moment in my last-round game against John. The
terrain gave the English a lovely hilltop covered with brush to
deploy on, which when added to his ditch covered about 3/4 of his
table edge. After about an hour of very short bounds during nobody
moved much, we broke down and admitted to each other that we were
both under"WAIT" orders. Game was called (1-0 for John, the only loss
being my scythed chariot, which dutifully charged to its doom on
Bound 3) and drinks were ordered, neither of us wishing to be the one
to hand the other 5 points on a platter.

More people would've been nice, but it was a good time anyway. dave
lauerman






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Another question, if it the second round of combat, the Roman unit whose rear
rank is disordered but front rank is steady, is disordered by the second round
of combat's result, does it count as being disorder while disordered (because of
the rear rank) and have to waiver check?

Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
Jon and Scott,

Is there any consideration with the question at hand? What happens to the
Roman unit that has been previously disordered. Should the rear rank be able to
rally itself and fight and then come through counting steady and at first
contact???

Todd

Dave Lauerman <Dlauerman@...> wrote:
Hello;

We had a 3 round 1600 point tourney at The Shield on Saturday. Only 4
people showed up to play, but we played a round-robin and had a good
time anyway. Participants were (in order of finish);

Rich Gagliasso-- Early Imp. Romans--12 points
Dave Lauerman -- Early Seleukids --10 points
John Baumann -- 100 YW English -- 4 points
Ed Forbes -- Marian Romans -- 4 points

The latest version of the Roman infantry rules were a subject of much
headscratching, with the non-romans wondering why the front rank of a
unit you just laid a 3-per on was not counting disordered. This was
particularly perplexing when the unit in question was disordered
before the combat began, stayed disordered during the first round,
and then magically recovered in time for the second round of HTH. At
any rate, a good time was had by all.

There was an amusing moment in my last-round game against John. The
terrain gave the English a lovely hilltop covered with brush to
deploy on, which when added to his ditch covered about 3/4 of his
table edge. After about an hour of very short bounds during nobody
moved much, we broke down and admitted to each other that we were
both under"WAIT" orders. Game was called (1-0 for John, the only loss
being my scythed chariot, which dutifully charged to its doom on
Bound 3) and drinks were ordered, neither of us wishing to be the one
to hand the other 5 points on a platter.

More people would've been nice, but it was a good time anyway. dave
lauerman






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/13/2006 07:11:38 Central Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

Jon and Scott,

Is there any consideration with the question at hand? What happens to the
Roman unit that has been previously disordered. Should the rear rank be able
to rally itself and fight and then come through counting steady and at first
contact???

Todd>>
[
I didn't see a rules question in that mail, Todd, all I caught was a why
question. And your questions are in a similar vein. If the question is, do
the
circulating combatants rules work if the body is disordered for some reason
*before* combat - the answer is yes (but not if the body is shaken). I am
not sure what you mean by rally as there is no 'rallying' in that list rule.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/13/2006 09:59:07 Central Standard Time,
spor17@... writes:

Another question, if it the second round of combat, the Roman unit whose
rear rank is disordered but front rank is steady, is disordered by the second
round of combat's result, does it count as being disorder while disordered
(because of the rear rank) and have to waiver check? >>
[
Waver. Yes. The element(s) that count steady do so only for (that)
hand-to-hand combat and for no other purpose. If the body is disordered and
becomes
disordered again through a combat cause, then the body takes a waver.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/14/2006 06:53:34 Central Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

My question was this. If the legion has been disorder prior to the combat
(say from prep shooting) and is charged and recoiled - should the legion be
able to exchange ranks and get a steady element to come through from the rear
rank??? It was never steady to begin with. I can see if the entire body was
steady prior to the combat and the rear rank, due to its training, came
through to relieve the disordered first rank, but the entire body was
disordered
from shooting.>>
[
This is a why question - and it is our policy not to get into these except
on a case by case basis. But since Todd is such a super guy, here goes...

What we are simulating with the Roman rules is an effect that takes place
'below' the resolution of what Warrior often considers a 'unit'. If what fits
in the 'space' of a 4E roman Warrior unit is 2 or more maniples or other such
real life subunits, then the replacing element coming forward and *counting*
steady for one combat is simulating something happening down inside that
space. Also, practically speaking, the rare case of a roman unit being
disordered before combat and then not becoming shaken or broken from the first
bound
of hand-to-hand isn't going to be significantly changed by one rank counting
HTW and not -2 for disordered close. In those cases where the change makes
some difference, it does so against opponents we want the rule to make a
difference against.

Jon




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my thought - not much sleep in the tank w/ the
new one.

Here we go w/ a decent night's sleep.

My question was this. If the legion has been disorder prior to the combat
(say from prep shooting) and is charged and recoiled - should the legion be able
to exchange ranks and get a steady element to come through from the rear rank???
It was never steady to begin with. I can see if the entire body was steady
prior to the combat and the rear rank, due to its training, came through to
relieve the disordered first rank, but the entire body was disordered from
shooting.

Thanks for the time and thought,

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 2/13/2006 07:11:38 Central Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

Jon and Scott,

Is there any consideration with the question at hand? What happens to the
Roman unit that has been previously disordered. Should the rear rank be able
to rally itself and fight and then come through counting steady and at first
contact???

Todd>>
[
I didn't see a rules question in that mail, Todd, all I caught was a why
question. And your questions are in a similar vein. If the question is, do
the
circulating combatants rules work if the body is disordered for some reason
*before* combat - the answer is yes (but not if the body is shaken). I am
not sure what you mean by rally as there is no 'rallying' in that list rule.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Todd Kaeser]

Gotcha, and thanks again.

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 2/13/2006 09:59:07 Central Standard Time,
spor17@... writes:

Another question, if it the second round of combat, the Roman unit whose
rear rank is disordered but front rank is steady, is disordered by the second
round of combat's result, does it count as being disorder while disordered
(because of the rear rank) and have to waiver check? >>
[
Waver. Yes. The element(s) that count steady do so only for (that)
hand-to-hand combat and for no other purpose. If the body is disordered and
becomes
disordered again through a combat cause, then the body takes a waver.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Todd Kaeser]

Jon,

I appreciate the info and the time given. You do need to hear more of this I
would think.

I only think it's unfortunate that a unit of 2E of impetuous SHK will be
halted by the legions (4E HI HTW,Sh) on the 2nd turn of combat.

Must bring in multiple units to rout the legions.

Thanks,

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/2006 06:53:34 Central Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

My question was this. If the legion has been disorder prior to the combat
(say from prep shooting) and is charged and recoiled - should the legion be
able to exchange ranks and get a steady element to come through from the rear
rank??? It was never steady to begin with. I can see if the entire body was
steady prior to the combat and the rear rank, due to its training, came
through to relieve the disordered first rank, but the entire body was
disordered
from shooting.>>
[
This is a why question - and it is our policy not to get into these except
on a case by case basis. But since Todd is such a super guy, here goes...

What we are simulating with the Roman rules is an effect that takes place
'below' the resolution of what Warrior often considers a 'unit'. If what fits
in the 'space' of a 4E roman Warrior unit is 2 or more maniples or other such
real life subunits, then the replacing element coming forward and *counting*
steady for one combat is simulating something happening down inside that
space. Also, practically speaking, the rare case of a roman unit being
disordered before combat and then not becoming shaken or broken from the first
bound
of hand-to-hand isn't going to be significantly changed by one rank counting
HTW and not -2 for disordered close. In those cases where the change makes
some difference, it does so against opponents we want the rule to make a
difference against.

Jon




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Dave Lauerman]

> What we are simulating with the Roman rules is an effect that
takes place
> 'below' the resolution of what Warrior often considers a 'unit'.
If what fits
> in the 'space' of a 4E roman Warrior unit is 2 or more maniples or
other such
> real life subunits, then the replacing element coming forward and
*counting*
> steady for one combat is simulating something happening down
inside that
> space. Also, practically speaking, the rare case of a roman unit
being
> disordered before combat and then not becoming shaken or broken
from the first bound
> of hand-to-hand isn't going to be significantly changed by one
rank counting
> HTW and not -2 for disordered close. In those cases where the
change makes
> some difference, it does so against opponents we want the rule to
make a
> difference against.
>
> Jon

Jon - I appreciate the explanation.I was glad to get it even though,
unlike Todd, I am not a good enough guy to really deserve an
explanation to what otherwise seemed like a bizarre and arbitrary
rule.

Now I understand; Romans are magic. The skills of Romans were not
adequately modeled by existing rules mechanics, so special rules
were put in just for them to make them behave more historically. I
am actually much happier with this rule now that I know why you did
it. I only wish I could have deserved the explanation on my own
merit, rather than having had to eavesdrop on secret data intended
only for Tod. dave lauerman

[joncleaves]

Todd, as you must know - how SHK hitting legions works out has nothing to do
with our making the rule....

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:32:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] The Shield; Results - + Roman question


Jon,

I appreciate the info and the time given. You do need to hear more of this I
would think.

I only think it's unfortunate that a unit of 2E of impetuous SHK will be
halted by the legions (4E HI HTW,Sh) on the 2nd turn of combat.

Must bring in multiple units to rout the legions.

Thanks,

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/2006 06:53:34 Central Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

My question was this. If the legion has been disorder prior to the combat
(say from prep shooting) and is charged and recoiled - should the legion be
able to exchange ranks and get a steady element to come through from the rear
rank??? It was never steady to begin with. I can see if the entire body was
steady prior to the combat and the rear rank, due to its training, came
through to relieve the disordered first rank, but the entire body was
disordered
from shooting.>>
[
This is a why question - and it is our policy not to get into these except
on a case by case basis. But since Todd is such a super guy, here goes...

What we are simulating with the Roman rules is an effect that takes place
'below' the resolution of what Warrior often considers a 'unit'. If what fits
in the 'space' of a 4E roman Warrior unit is 2 or more maniples or other such
real life subunits, then the replacing element coming forward and *counting*
steady for one combat is simulating something happening down inside that
space. Also, practically speaking, the rare case of a roman unit being
disordered before combat and then not becoming shaken or broken from the first
bound
of hand-to-hand isn't going to be significantly changed by one rank counting
HTW and not -2 for disordered close. In those cases where the change makes
some difference, it does so against opponents we want the rule to make a
difference against.

Jon




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[joncleaves]

Dave, no harm meant. I answered your mail like the rules question I thought it
was. I was messing with Todd, an old friend.

It would be best - as always - if rules questions were in mails all by
themselves with no game results, random musings or why questions. If they are
not, you run the risk of having this discussion go the way it did.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Lauerman <Dlauerman@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:40:22 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: The Shield; Results - + Roman question


> What we are simulating with the Roman rules is an effect that
takes place
> 'below' the resolution of what Warrior often considers a 'unit'.
If what fits
> in the 'space' of a 4E roman Warrior unit is 2 or more maniples or
other such
> real life subunits, then the replacing element coming forward and
*counting*
> steady for one combat is simulating something happening down
inside that
> space. Also, practically speaking, the rare case of a roman unit
being
> disordered before combat and then not becoming shaken or broken
from the first bound
> of hand-to-hand isn't going to be significantly changed by one
rank counting
> HTW and not -2 for disordered close. In those cases where the
change makes
> some difference, it does so against opponents we want the rule to
make a
> difference against.
>
> Jon

Jon - I appreciate the explanation.I was glad to get it even though,
unlike Todd, I am not a good enough guy to really deserve an
explanation to what otherwise seemed like a bizarre and arbitrary
rule.

Now I understand; Romans are magic. The skills of Romans were not
adequately modeled by existing rules mechanics, so special rules
were put in just for them to make them behave more historically. I
am actually much happier with this rule now that I know why you did
it. I only wish I could have deserved the explanation on my own
merit, rather than having had to eavesdrop on secret data intended
only for Tod. dave lauerman






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Frank Gilson]

SHK units are for:
a) routing things at contact
b) tiring/disordering things for a follow up charge by some other unit

Neither of these purposes are deflected by the Roman infantry rules.
One lone SHK unit shouldn't be going at it without support against a
4 element Roman infantry unit.

Send in 2, or hit the Roman unit on the 2nd bound with one of your
free units...which you should have because the Romans are slow close
order foot.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
wrote:
>
> Jon,
>
> I appreciate the info and the time given. You do need to hear
more of this I would think.
>
> I only think it's unfortunate that a unit of 2E of impetuous SHK
will be halted by the legions (4E HI HTW,Sh) on the 2nd turn of
combat.
>
> Must bring in multiple units to rout the legions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd
>
> JonCleaves@... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/14/2006 06:53:34 Central Standard Time,
> hailkaeser@... writes:
>
> My question was this. If the legion has been disorder prior to
the combat
> (say from prep shooting) and is charged and recoiled - should the
legion be
> able to exchange ranks and get a steady element to come through
from the rear
> rank??? It was never steady to begin with. I can see if the
entire body was
> steady prior to the combat and the rear rank, due to its training,
came
> through to relieve the disordered first rank, but the entire body
was disordered
> from shooting.>>
> [
> This is a why question - and it is our policy not to get into these
except
> on a case by case basis. But since Todd is such a super guy, here
goes...
>
> What we are simulating with the Roman rules is an effect that takes
place
> 'below' the resolution of what Warrior often considers a 'unit'.
If what fits
> in the 'space' of a 4E roman Warrior unit is 2 or more maniples or
other such
> real life subunits, then the replacing element coming forward and
*counting*
> steady for one combat is simulating something happening down
inside that
> space. Also, practically speaking, the rare case of a roman unit
being
> disordered before combat and then not becoming shaken or broken
from the first bound
> of hand-to-hand isn't going to be significantly changed by one
rank counting
> HTW and not -2 for disordered close. In those cases where the
change makes
> some difference, it does so against opponents we want the rule to
make a
> difference against.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Miniature wargaming Wargaming Warrior
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
>
> Visit your group "WarriorRules" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Dave Lauerman]

Jon- Thanks for the re-response. My last note sounds snarkier than I
meant it to be. I was shooting for whimsical and plaintive and only
managed petulant. Sorry.

I really do like this rule better than the old version. I have long
advocated "special case rules" for Roman legionaries and I am
delighted to see they are now here. I admit to some initial confusion--
OK a LOT of initial confusion--but I am now convinced you are on the
right track. Like you need my approval, right? Anyway, well done. dave
lauerman