Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Phil
The 1.5 (or full) rank behind for weapon types is a 'mechanic for effect'.
It is designed to be simple to implement and 'feel' right. Another example
would be Command Decision, which uses a hit-then-penetrate system for an
entire platoon's fires. Right feel, accurate results, not perfectly
simulative.

The 1.5 ranks for 'wedge' is designed to give combat benefit to those troops
that we feel made effective use of it while simultaneously not creating a
whole new way of increasing combat power or requiring split basing.

A small handful of specific troop types performed (through formation or other
means) 'better' or 'worse' than others similarly equipped/organized. We are
using list rules to represent this. We think guys like Thessalian cav and
Vikings fall into this category.

Of course, no one is forced to use the list rules, but there has to be a
baseline for standardization/tournament purposes. Tourney organizers are
even free to ignore them or even use entire lists of their own devising, but
we think the color and accuracy our lists will provide will make them the
most used for organized Warrior games among different groups/players.

Jon

[Phil Gardocki]

I have an objection to special rules to compensate troops that
formally were able to fight in wedge continuing to fight a rank and a half
with weapons that would not normally be able to. This seems to be done with
the rational that "Those behind contributed by their momentum or inertia,
missiles, or relief of tired or wounded men." While this is a nice concept,
the reality of the game is that the number ranks is totally dependent on
weapon types. If Slav Axemen can fight a rank and a half with an ax, then
why not Varangian Guardsmen? They were trained to fight in ordered ranks,
and presumably could relieve tired and wounded men. (the only debate was
whether or not they used a two handed ax in battle.)
I think this is in compensation for all the "wedgeable" armies out
there, but if you are going to eliminate the formation, why muddy the rules
with the exception coding? Frankly, I thought the wedge was a silly
formation, because if the geometry of the thing was studied, and assuming
the wedge "penetrated" instead of "squashed" against the enemy formation,
than both sides would have more men fighting, so at best, it raised the
tempo of the battle, but not the odds. I would agree that if the wedge
"penetrated", that the penetrated formation would be more prone to breaking
down, possibly effecting disorder, waver check, or a cause of unease.
I see Warrior(R) heading down a slippery slope where every one will
have a rank and half. At the moment, the exceptions left are, (pause,
shuffle, shuffle) Elephants and Chariots without runners, JLS armed Cavalry,
exclusively Bow, LB, CB, 2HCT not also armed with JLS. At this point, why
not drop the 1.5 ranks except for pike and make the counting simpler?
There is a collateral effect when you raise the weapon effectiveness
of many troop types. You raise the tempo of the battle. You will see
individual battles being resolved in a shorter period of time. There will
be less of the push and shove that was the nature of two battlelines
clashing. The Rev 7 combat table is fairly bloody as is, giving Lance and
2HCW 50% more fire power will skew the battles to be shorter and more
decisive.

Philip (Lance is my life) Gardocki

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

My problem with wedges in 7.x was that they created real advantages without any
cost in points. It created favored armies based purely on the ability to wedge.

The difference was most pronounced with cavalry, but it was enough of an
advantage that with two similar infantry armies, one without wedging troops, you
would be at a big disad not to take them.

Lance is already an effective enough weapon, I'm not sure I see the argument for
l.5 ranks -- but as long as it goes to all L cavalry, then I don't see a big
problem outside of the potential infantry v. cavalry balance issues.

(6 HK, L, Sh v. 16 HI, JLS,SH
at 1.5 ranks HK do 30 take 12, roll one up and 2CPF 3x casualties
at 1 rank HK do 18 take 12.)

Giving some troops armed with 2HCW 1.5 ranks and keeping others at 1 rank does
seem to open up the point cost question.

Now the Thessalian Rhomboid, on the other hand. That was a sharp formation.

John Meunier

Philip Gardocki wrote:

> I have an objection to special rules to compensate troops that
> formally were able to fight in wedge continuing to fight a rank and a half
> with weapons that would not normally be able to. This seems to be done with
> the rational that "Those behind contributed by their momentum or inertia,
> missiles, or relief of tired or wounded men." While this is a nice concept,
> the reality of the game is that the number ranks is totally dependent on
> weapon types. If Slav Axemen can fight a rank and a half with an ax, then
> why not Varangian Guardsmen? They were trained to fight in ordered ranks,
> and presumably could relieve tired and wounded men. (the only debate was
> whether or not they used a two handed ax in battle.)
> I think this is in compensation for all the "wedgeable" armies out
> there, but if you are going to eliminate the formation, why muddy the rules
> with the exception coding? Frankly, I thought the wedge was a silly
> formation, because if the geometry of the thing was studied, and assuming
> the wedge "penetrated" instead of "squashed" against the enemy formation,
> than both sides would have more men fighting, so at best, it raised the
> tempo of the battle, but not the odds. I would agree that if the wedge
> "penetrated", that the penetrated formation would be more prone to breaking
> down, possibly effecting disorder, waver check, or a cause of unease.
> I see Warrior(R) heading down a slippery slope where every one will
> have a rank and half. At the moment, the exceptions left are, (pause,
> shuffle, shuffle) Elephants and Chariots without runners, JLS armed Cavalry,
> exclusively Bow, LB, CB, 2HCT not also armed with JLS. At this point, why
> not drop the 1.5 ranks except for pike and make the counting simpler?
> There is a collateral effect when you raise the weapon effectiveness
> of many troop types. You raise the tempo of the battle. You will see
> individual battles being resolved in a shorter period of time. There will
> be less of the push and shove that was the nature of two battlelines
> clashing. The Rev 7 combat table is fairly bloody as is, giving Lance and
> 2HCW 50% more fire power will skew the battles to be shorter and more
> decisive.
>
> Philip (Lance is my life) Gardocki
>
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Hello everybody. I've just found this sight and am glad somebody has
taken this ruleset on. This is the thread that has interested me
most
so far though. Wedges in the original 7th got something for nothing,
NEARLY. If the enemy did not break or break off they became a
disordered block. They also found it more difficult to change
direction. Now if they get 1.5 ranks , still for no extra points
cost
they can move like a block get more men fighting and suffer no
disadvantage at all.

Phil

[Greg Regets]

Technically, they really did get something for nothing, since players were
not forced to use the wedge.

I have heard that there was a consideration long ago of using an additional
point per figure, but I can see the dilema there as that would represent a
serious increase percentage wise for your IRR,C,MI,JLS,Sh guys and very
little for your REG,A,SHK,L,Sh.

What about a set cost for a unit fighting in wedge. This would be a bit more
uniform as more expensive troops tend to be in smaller units than less
expensive troops.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: philip.powell@... [mailto:philip.powell@...]
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 5:14 PM
To: WarriorRules@egroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Wedges


Hello everybody. I've just found this sight and am glad somebody has
taken this ruleset on. This is the thread that has interested me
most
so far though. Wedges in the original 7th got something for nothing,
NEARLY. If the enemy did not break or break off they became a
disordered block. They also found it more difficult to change
direction. Now if they get 1.5 ranks , still for no extra points
cost
they can move like a block get more men fighting and suffer no
disadvantage at all.

Phil


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[joncleaves]

<< Now if they get 1.5 ranks , still for no extra points cost
they can move like a block get more men fighting and suffer no
disadvantage at all.

Phil >>

Phil,

We know this is an issue. Nothing has been decided. Your voice has been
duly added to those who share your concern.

Jon

[Phil Gardocki]

Why some people, myself included, have a problem with an advantage without
paying for it problem with wedges is not understandable to me.
We do not have a problem with lights going into skirmish.
We do not have a problem with Romans going into testudo.
We do not have a problem with LMI going into rough terrain.
We do not have a problem with close order going into orb.


Some troop types have an advantage that is in their perceived nature. We
are debating if wedge is one of them.
The question can be easily broken down as follows:

1) Was being in wedge actually an advantage?
2) If so, what is the nature of the advantage?
3) If so, how do we best replicate the advantage using existing
game mechanics?
4) If it is an advantage, should their be a cost to it?

The answer to one is yes, there was an advantage. The people of the era
adopted the formation over and over. They thought it had value, therefor it
must have had value.

Two is more tricky.
There could be a number of reasons why it was adopted. Barbarian
hordes may have adopted it because it concentrated scarce resources of armor
where it was needed most. Or, they may have done it for honor, with the
points of the wedge dedicated to those who earn the position. This also
would serve to concentrate fighting power at one point. Or they might have
done it to break the battle into a chaotic melee fastest, where their
numbers would then have the most advantage. Civilized countries will have
had geometry to study the
formation and its effects more carefully. Romans may have used it as a
defensive formation to allow partial flank shots on a closing barbarian
charge. Or also to break up the battle to a chaotic mess where their
superior armor and teamwork work to their advantage. They stopped this
practice around the some time after they started facing heavy cavalry. This
may or may not be a coincidence, as many environmental influences were
occurring at the same time. Later periods have the Knights and Cataphracts
forming in wedge. They may have done it for the same reasons of resource
allotment and breaking up the battle into a chaotic mess, allowing superior
armor and position to their advantage.

Three, how best to replicate the advantage.
The original method was to add more figures to battle. This definitely
was an advantage, but one many thought were unfair. Was it an accurate
assessment? My thought is if you bring more forces or frontage into the
combat, that your opponent does also. This would be a very messy way of
doing things.
My thoughts on dealing with the wedge is to follow chaotic melee thought
process. The side with the wedge has a perceived advantage getting the
battle to that point.
1) Wedging units do not get a figure - figure advantage.
2) If Wedging units push an enemy back, the enemy is disordered.
3) If the Wedge fails to push the enemy back, it is disordered.

Four, as to the last question, no other troop type pays for special
formations. So
the answer is no special points for wedge as well.


Philip (I have almost no wedges) Gardocki

(610) 495-7923 (answering machine)
(610) 495 8937
When the avalanche falls, it is too late for the pebbles to vote.

> From: Philip Gardocki [mailto:phgamer@...]
>
> Why some people, myself included, have a problem with an
> advantage without
> paying for it problem with wedges is not understandable to me.
> We do not have a problem with lights going into skirmish.
> We do not have a problem with Romans going into testudo.
> We do not have a problem with LMI going into rough terrain.
> We do not have a problem with close order going into orb.

But except for the Romans, ALL troops of the appropriate type can do these -
it is not a case of my lights being able to skirmish and yours cannot.
Testudo for Romans is a very minor advantage IMO, and probably not worth
worrying about.

Wedge is/was different. It was an advantage which was not available to all
troops of a type.

Mike


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/2/2004 14:39:45 Central Daylight Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
I'll try to comment on this, but do not take anything said by me to
be a reflection of Warrior rules, lists or policies. I'm just a
shuck like everyone else who shouldn't be answering rules questions.
However, this is not strictly a rules question per se, so...>>

John, report to the disintegration chamber.



There are no more "wedges" under Warrior. So your Hsiung-Nu can no
longer use them.>>

Not the way they were in 7th. As John correctly points out, there is no
wedge formation in Warrior. There are some types of JLS-armed cav who get a
list
rule that allows them to fight 1.5 ranks - this includes Xiongnu. If you are
using an old list THAT HAS NOT BEEN SUPERCEDED by an FHE list book and it
allows wedge to JLS-armed cav, that cav has the same list rule that Huns and
Xiongnu have.


Basically, TOG "7.6" (circa mid-90's) made all lancers rank-and-a-
half. This pretty much had the effect of giving all L-armed
cav "wedge" capability.>>

TOG = That Other Game - WRG Ancients, edition 7.6

Probably, if they had wedge before, when Oriental Warrior comes out
your Hsiung-Nu will get a list rule to simply be able to fight 1.5
ranks without "wedge", although that will be at the discretion of
the list author obviously.>>

They will.


Unfortunately in the meantime I believe you are stuck in limbo where
you can no longer use wedge but do not have a list rule to cover you.>>

Not true - see above.

Not too bad, John. For a 'shuck'...lol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Could someone explain where the rule on fighting in a wedge is found. I can do
it with my Hsiung-nu, but I have no idea how it works.
Allan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/2/2004 16:50:39 Central Daylight Time,
redcoat24@... writes:
Thanks for the clarification Jon. As I understand it then, Hsiung-nu simply
adopt a block formation and are able to use JLS with 1.5 ranks?>>

Yes, when charging, countercharging or pursuing.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

I'll try to comment on this, but do not take anything said by me to
be a reflection of Warrior rules, lists or policies. I'm just a
shuck like everyone else who shouldn't be answering rules questions.
However, this is not strictly a rules question per se, so...

There are no more "wedges" under Warrior. So your Hsiung-Nu can no
longer use them.

Basically, TOG "7.6" (circa mid-90's) made all lancers rank-and-a-
half. This pretty much had the effect of giving all L-armed
cav "wedge" capability.

Warrior did away with the mechanic entirely, and instead uses
the "7.6" 1.5-rank lancers _plus_ list rules to allow some
previously-wedging (?) LC to fight in 1.5 ranks where the list
authors feel the added performance is justified on hstorical grounds.

For example look at the Hunnic list in Imperial Warrior (or Hun LC
in other armies).

Probably, if they had wedge before, when Oriental Warrior comes out
your Hsiung-Nu will get a list rule to simply be able to fight 1.5
ranks without "wedge", although that will be at the discretion of
the list author obviously.

Unfortunately in the meantime I believe you are stuck in limbo where
you can no longer use wedge but do not have a list rule to cover you.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Lougheed"
<redcoat24@c...> wrote:
> Could someone explain where the rule on fighting in a wedge is
found. I can do it with my Hsiung-nu, but I have no idea how it
works.

Ok, that makes sense, I keep forgetting that the list I use is essentially the
WRG 7 list.
Thanks
Allan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the clarification Jon. As I understand it then, Hsiung-nu simply
adopt a block formation and are able to use JLS with 1.5 ranks?

Allan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]