Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Hi all. I've been following this thread, and admit that I can see
where choice of where to hit an enemy body could be critical to both
a single combat resolution AND to overall strategy.

So Jon, I know your time is limited, so I'll try to be as
comprehensive with my examples as possible and see if we can get
this nailed down.



Example 1:
----------


|___A1___||___A2___||___A3___|
|
sufficient # of paces separation that unit B can wheel
|
|---X1---|


Sitrep: My unit, who's front facing element is X1 plans to
charge the 3E wide enemy unit A, whose foward facing elements are
A1, A2, A3.

During Charge declaration, I declare that Unit A is my target.

Let us say I'm some form of mounted that has 160p of
Tactical/Charge move available and that I could wheel and make
contact with the front of any element of Unit A.

1.) Must I charge STRAIGHT AHEAD? And thus contact element A2? Or
may I WHEEL, THEN CHARGE to come into contact with element A1 or
A3?

The reason could be

a.) that I wish to minimize figure overlap for number of figures
fighting in later Bounds (if I hit A3 or A1, only that element's
frontage, PLUS A2's element frontage will get to fight, whereas if I
go straight, the full frontage will get to overlap in and fight in
later rounds - an ugly proposition)

b.) I have ANOTHER unit, say Y1, that is behind and offset to X1,
that I would like to charge with, and because of troop positioning
it CANNOT if X1 goes straight in, but it CAN if X1 wheels to "make
space" for Y1 on the battle line.

c.) Planning ahead, I can see that Unit A has some mounted backup
that could come in and charge X1's flank in the next bound if I was
positioned in the middle, but if my unit X1 was offset to fight
either A1 or A3, that mounted backup would be JUST out of reach for
a charge, giving me time to nail the backup with troops that are
following up.

- Now, how does impetuous charges affect this?
- Now, if unit A COUNTER-charges, how does wheeling get affected?

-----------------

Example 2:
----------


|___A___|....|___B___|
|
Again, sufficient space for wheeling, but close enough to hit
|
|---X1--||---X2--|


Sitrep: Okay, so now, my unit X is facing off againt 2 different
units, A and B. Again, I have enough space to execute any necessary
wheels.

Say I declare a Charge on A, requiring a wheel. If B
countercharges, it will cancel my charge. However, if B flees, I
can flank charge unit A. If B STANDS, and my element X2 can't clear
B with the wheel what precisely happens?

a.) I have an illegal charge on A, and thus my charge is cancelled,
assuming the "...." space between A & B is large enough that
after "squaring up on B", I would NOT be in contact with A. (see
below) {correct? wrong?}

|___A___| |___B___|
|--X1---||--X2---|

b.) I have a charge where I can hit both A AND B because the "..."
space between A & B is small enough that my element X1 would still
be touching A while my element X2 is squared up on B. Since I would
STILL be contacting the DECLARED INTENDED TARGET (A), this charge is
NOT CANCELLED, and is allowed to happen. (see below). {correct? or
wrong?}

|___A___| |___B___|
|--X1---||--X2---|

-------------------

Your help in settling this would be GREATLY appreciated Jon.
Thanks!

-Asif




--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/4/2005 18:19:02 Central Daylight Time,
> jjmurphy@s... writes:
>
> Is all this a rules change?>>
>
>
> No....
>
>
> <<In the past when I have asked on this list, I believe you have
> stated that I can declare a charge path rather than a specific
enemy
> body as a target - >>
>
> When you declare on a target, the declaration also counts against
all enemy
> in the path - that much is true.
>
> <<and that in fact that charge path can include
> multiple enemy bodies so that, for instance, if the first one
> potentially contacted evades exposing its neighbor to a flank
charge
> then the other body can be targeted.>>
>
> True.
>
> But none of that changes my answer to the other question, which
was about
> wheeling.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just a side note to this - my diagrams are a bit messed up. Somehow,
the formatting I had when writing did not transfer over properly when
being viewed by listees.

To see the proper diagrams, please hit the "reply" button, and THEN
look at the text - I've just noticed that the formatting comes out
right when you do it this way <big shrug>.

Just to clarify:
- In example 1, my unit X is directly in front of element A2
- In example 2, my unit X is set up so that leftmost element X1 is
directly in front of enemy Unit B.

Thanks!
-Asif Chaudhry

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "shahadet_99" <shahadet_99@y...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all. I've been following this thread, and admit that I can see
> where choice of where to hit an enemy body could be critical to
both
> a single combat resolution AND to overall strategy.
>
> So Jon, I know your time is limited, so I'll try to be as
> comprehensive with my examples as possible and see if we can get
> this nailed down.
>
>
>
> Example 1:
> ----------
>
>
> |___A1___||___A2___||___A3___|
> |
> sufficient # of paces separation that unit B can wheel
> |
> |---X1---|
>
>
> Sitrep: My unit, who's front facing element is X1 plans to
> charge the 3E wide enemy unit A, whose foward facing elements are
> A1, A2, A3.
>
> During Charge declaration, I declare that Unit A is my target.
>
> Let us say I'm some form of mounted that has 160p of
> Tactical/Charge move available and that I could wheel and make
> contact with the front of any element of Unit A.
>
> 1.) Must I charge STRAIGHT AHEAD? And thus contact element A2? Or
> may I WHEEL, THEN CHARGE to come into contact with element A1 or
> A3?
>
> The reason could be
>
> a.) that I wish to minimize figure overlap for number of figures
> fighting in later Bounds (if I hit A3 or A1, only that element's
> frontage, PLUS A2's element frontage will get to fight, whereas if
I
> go straight, the full frontage will get to overlap in and fight in
> later rounds - an ugly proposition)
>
> b.) I have ANOTHER unit, say Y1, that is behind and offset to X1,
> that I would like to charge with, and because of troop positioning
> it CANNOT if X1 goes straight in, but it CAN if X1 wheels to "make
> space" for Y1 on the battle line.
>
> c.) Planning ahead, I can see that Unit A has some mounted backup
> that could come in and charge X1's flank in the next bound if I was
> positioned in the middle, but if my unit X1 was offset to fight
> either A1 or A3, that mounted backup would be JUST out of reach for
> a charge, giving me time to nail the backup with troops that are
> following up.
>
> - Now, how does impetuous charges affect this?
> - Now, if unit A COUNTER-charges, how does wheeling get affected?
>
> -----------------
>
> Example 2:
> ----------
>
>
> |___A___|....|___B___|
> |
> Again, sufficient space for wheeling, but close enough to hit
> |
> |---X1--||---X2--|
>
>
> Sitrep: Okay, so now, my unit X is facing off againt 2 different
> units, A and B. Again, I have enough space to execute any
necessary
> wheels.
>
> Say I declare a Charge on A, requiring a wheel. If B
> countercharges, it will cancel my charge. However, if B flees, I
> can flank charge unit A. If B STANDS, and my element X2 can't
clear
> B with the wheel what precisely happens?
>
> a.) I have an illegal charge on A, and thus my charge is
cancelled,
> assuming the "...." space between A & B is large enough that
> after "squaring up on B", I would NOT be in contact with A. (see
> below) {correct? wrong?}
>
> |___A___| |___B___|
> |--X1---||--X2---|
>
> b.) I have a charge where I can hit both A AND B because the "..."
> space between A & B is small enough that my element X1 would still
> be touching A while my element X2 is squared up on B. Since I
would
> STILL be contacting the DECLARED INTENDED TARGET (A), this charge
is
> NOT CANCELLED, and is allowed to happen. (see below). {correct? or
> wrong?}
>
> |___A___| |___B___|
> |--X1---||--X2---|
>
> -------------------
>
> Your help in settling this would be GREATLY appreciated Jon.
> Thanks!
>
> -Asif

[joncleaves]

Well, I can't find where I said that a body can only wheel in a charge to place
the minimum amount of the target in the charge path and I need to move on to
other things. So, I am going to answer these questions and if someone has where
I have ruled differently in the past, then we can address that then.

<<Example 1:
----------


|___A1___||___A2___||___A3___|
|
sufficient # of paces separation that unit B can wheel
|
|---X1---|


Sitrep: My unit, who's front facing element is X1 plans to
charge the 3E wide enemy unit A, whose foward facing elements are
A1, A2, A3.

During Charge declaration, I declare that Unit A is my target.

Let us say I'm some form of mounted that has 160p of
Tactical/Charge move available and that I could wheel and make
contact with the front of any element of Unit A.

1.) Must I charge STRAIGHT AHEAD? And thus contact element A2?>>
[
No.

<< Or
may I WHEEL, THEN CHARGE to come into contact with element A1 or
A3? >>
[
You can wheel, and as both your front corners appear to be equidistant from the
target, you can wheel in either direction.

<<- Now, how does impetuous charges affect this?>>
[
It does not.

<<- Now, if unit A COUNTER-charges, how does wheeling get affected?>>
[
You prorate countercharges, starting with prorating any declared wheels.

<<Example 2:
----------


|___A___|....|___B___|
|
Again, sufficient space for wheeling, but close enough to hit
|
|---X1--||---X2--|


Sitrep: Okay, so now, my unit X is facing off againt 2 different
units, A and B. Again, I have enough space to execute any necessary
wheels.

Say I declare a Charge on A, requiring a wheel. If B
countercharges, it will cancel my charge. >>
[
No, it won't cancel your charge - you'll just hit B first before hitting A.

<< However, if B flees, I
can flank charge unit A. >>
[
Possibly. A might be a troop type that gets a charge response besides stand.

<< If B STANDS, and my element X2 can't clear
B with the wheel what precisely happens?>>
[
You hit B. A distant target may be in charge PATH but not in charge REACH.
This is usually due to an intervening body. Until the situation with that body
is resolved, if it does not move out of the way (as in an evade) then the
distant body you cannot get to is not in your charge REACH.

<<b.) I have a charge where I can hit both A AND B because the "..."
space between A & B is small enough that my element X1 would still
be touching A while my element X2 is squared up on B.>>
[
True.

<< Since I would
STILL be contacting the DECLARED INTENDED TARGET (A), this charge is
NOT CANCELLED, and is allowed to happen. (see below). {correct? or
wrong?}>>
[
Not being able to reach some distant target does not, in and of itself, cancel a
charge.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Well, I can't find where I said that a body can only wheel in a
charge to place the minimum amount of the target in the charge path
and I need to move on to other things. So, I am going to answer
these questions and if someone has where I have ruled differently in
the past, then we can address that then.

Jon,

In between searching this list's posts for a Russian mail-order
bride, much to the shock of my wife no doubt <a little humor just in
case anyone is wondering>, I found the following for you.

Message 17899 from Mark Stone posed the initial question
Message 17910 from Jon Cleaves was the answer that I think set this
off

The initial question concerned wether the "target" was the body or
an element in the body and wether the wheel could be more than the
minimum required to hit the target.

I think your response was the body, not an element, is the target
and only the minimum wheel was allowable to hit that target (and
only on the corner closest, another issue but one I do not think
anyone has heartache with).

I suspect there is a conflict here between wanting to avoid having
cheesy over-wheels to mitigate charge cancellation or something
versus simply picking the point on the target body that gets you the
least shot up.

Fwiw I kind of think making you suck it up instead of charging
across the front of a missile unit is a good thing, but can see that
is not, in my experience at least, the way the game almost always
played for years now.

Anyhow that should help you find it to get this cleared up.

Now, what about wheeling during approaches?

[joncleaves]

<< In between searching this list's posts for a Russian mail-order
bride, much to the shock of my wife no doubt <a little humor just in
case anyone is wondering>, I found the following for you.

Message 17899 from Mark Stone posed the initial question
Message 17910 from Jon Cleaves was the answer that I think set this
off>>

You're right John - I did say it - and I was wrong.

Must have gotten all mixed up when I was replying to that Russian girl...

In any case, I will work out a specific sequence for charge resolution and get
it into the revised rulebook.

Jon




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:

> << In between searching this list's posts for a Russian mail-order
> bride, much to the shock of my wife no doubt <a little humor just in
> case anyone is wondering>, I found the following for you.
>
> Message 17899 from Mark Stone posed the initial question
> Message 17910 from Jon Cleaves was the answer that I think set this
> off>>
>
> You're right John - I did say it - and I was wrong.

Well, Jon, that particular error only cost us the command we lost against
Dave and Frank...

Grr!