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X-Rules and fog of war
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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


No rule is more 'built' for x-rules and local modifications than 14.0. Do
what you like!

If you want to get an x-rule into the x-rule file, though, you'll need to
send it to me in rule form.

Jon


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:41 pm    Post subject: X-Rules and fog of war


Disclaimer: This is not meant to be a suggested rules change, only an
X-rules idea submitted for other playersı reactions.

One of the annoying aspects of announcing scouting points is that it can
potentially give information about oneıs setup to oneıs opponent. For
example, your opponent may gather information about your armyıs composition,
e.g. he must have taken the Bulgar allies since that is the only way he can
have more than 12 scouting points. Your opponent may also discover
information about flank marches and/or ambushes, e.g.,

Omniscient Opponent: ³Do I see all of your scouting points on the table?²

Frustrated Me: ³No, somehow you know that there is a unit of 2 elements of
LI that must be hiding in those woods because I havenıt rolled for any flank
marches so far, there is no other terrain on the board, and I have 1
scouting point out of 31 not visible.²

So, one X-rule idea would be to allow players to write down the number of
scouting points they intend to declare at the beginning of the game. This
number must be no greater than the actual total, but may be less. After both
sides secretly record their respective numbers, they go on to reveal their
scouting point ³totals² as per usual. For any out-scouting effects, use
these declared numbers instead of the actual totals. This may mean one side
is out-scouted when it otherwise would not have been, but those are the
chances you take and it will allow you to maintain a little more fog of war.

We have done this on occasion (and I am sure this is not an original idea)
but it would make a nice X-rule. What do you think?

Also, how about the idea of rolling for flank marches even if there arenıt
any just to keep the other guy/gal honest? Of course, if the flank march
arrives and no troops enter the board, then your opponent knows thereıs
nothing really there.

Any other fog of war ideas out there?


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Chris Bump
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:07 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 3:41:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
clr198@... writes:

> Also, how about the idea of rolling for flank marches even if there arenıt
> any just to keep the other guy/gal honest? Of course, if the flank march
> arrives and no troops enter the board, then your opponent
> knows thereıs
> nothing really there.

This one was suggested at least a year ago during playtesting in the early
stages of Warrior. It was summarily executed by Jon and Scott. Understand the
rationale behind it, but there were a fair number of arguments against it as
well IIRC.

I really like the idea of reducing Scouting Points, Particularly for armies who
have alot of them and so would have been able to screen the other fellow from
knowing what the heavy scouting factor fellow was bringing to the party. I will
suggest this as an experimental rule in DFW and maybe Texas and see how it is
received.
Chris

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Greg Regets
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


It seems to me that there is still quite a bit of fog, in that you may have
ambushed something not on your scouting point list, or something a bit strange
that contributes to a 'missing scouting point' total that makes little sense to
the enemy. In that sense, the fog lost by declaration is matched by the
potential fog created by this information being known.

I have always liked rolling for a flank march even if you didn't have one. When
I started playing 6th, or TOOG perhaps, everyone did this. I'm sure there are
good arguements against it, but damned if I can think of one.

At least in our area, I think the guys try to get the game going asap, without
doing things like sitting there and counting scouting points for ten minutes. I
believe the guys in Dallas even use a time clock for movement, and if you sat
there counting scouting points in San Antonio, you will probably be asked if
your husband or boyfriend plays WARRIOR too. ~wink~

At any rate, counting scouting points is not on the seq. of play chart, so does
not exist in WARRIOR. :-)

Greg

----- Original Message -----
From: cncbump@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules]X-Rules and fog of war


In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 3:41:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
clr198@... writes:

> Also, how about the idea of rolling for flank marches even if there arenıt
> any just to keep the other guy/gal honest? Of course, if the flank march
> arrives and no troops enter the board, then your opponent
> knows thereıs
> nothing really there.

This one was suggested at least a year ago during playtesting in the early
stages of Warrior. It was summarily executed by Jon and Scott. Understand the
rationale behind it, but there were a fair number of arguments against it as
well IIRC.

I really like the idea of reducing Scouting Points, Particularly for armies
who have alot of them and so would have been able to screen the other fellow
from knowing what the heavy scouting factor fellow was bringing to the party. I
will suggest this as an experimental rule in DFW and maybe Texas and see how it
is received.
Chris


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Chris Bump
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 4:44:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gar@... writes:

>
> At any rate, counting scouting points is not on the seq. of
> play chart, so does not exist in WARRIOR. Smile
>
> Greg
>
>
It is common to be asked the question though Greg do I see all of your scouting
points, just to eliminate having to count your opponent's scouting points. It
is akin to asking if your list can have any Irr A's? It is not pointing out
whether you do or don't but saves the time of having to go and look, all in the
spirit of getting the game going and not dragging by counting points or looking
up your opponents' lists.

The only way you could be short 1 scouting point would be 2 LI infantry stands
missing or a single loose order cav stand missing and the only way that could
happen would be if it were a general's element. The fog is now gone. At least
with regards to any ambushes in anything other than woods.

I do think that there should be some form of disception allowed within the game.
Scouting points as long as you don't exaggerate your scouting ability is quite
harmless, but does allow you to hide or atleast confuse your opponent as to
exactly what troops you're deploying today.

If I know my opponent is shy say 6 scouting points, I can deduce 12 elements of
LI infantry are hiding, 6 elements of loose order cav is hiding or flank
marching or 2 elements of LC are hiding or flank marching. I will therefore be
able to act perhaps more conservative than I might have otherwise. If my
opponent is able to understate what scouting points he actually has, I will have
no reason to think there might be EHC in the woods or anyone force marching
until he starts rolling for it. You may argue that prudence is good sense
anyhow, but most good traps rely on your opponent being somewhat brash.
Thinking that he sees everything when in fact he doesn't is a perfect setup.
Chris

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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


> At least in our area, I think the guys try to get the game going
asap, without doing things like sitting there and counting scouting
points for ten minutes. I believe the guys in Dallas even use a time
clock for movement, and if you sat there counting scouting points in
San Antonio, you will probably be asked if your husband or boyfriend
plays WARRIOR too. ~wink~


Actually, I remember a game last year at Historicon where Frank
Gilson took about 15 minutes(it seemed like forever) counting my
scouting points I had on the table. I sat there in the silence and
finally asked him if he was ready. He told me that he was counting up
my scouting points to which I replied that everything was on the
table in full view. Some of the Really great players like Frank will
do that. Personally, I have no problem with telling my opponent how
many points are on or off the table if it will facillitate moving the
game along. But I do agree, it does give your opponent too much
information in regard to your armies composition. One very good way
to fix this would be to report your scouting points to the tournament
director and have him write on the paring who is outscouted or not.
What does everyone think about that?

Kelly


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Greg Regets
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Hey Chris, I have no problem with a guy counting my scouting points, as long as
he doesn't disrupt the start of the game to do it. He can count them while I do
my approaches, counters and retirements in bound one, and if needed, while we
are marching.

Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: cncbump@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules]X-Rules and fog of war


In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 4:44:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gar@... writes:

>
> At any rate, counting scouting points is not on the seq. of
> play chart, so does not exist in WARRIOR. Smile
>
> Greg
>
>
It is common to be asked the question though Greg do I see all of your
scouting points, just to eliminate having to count your opponent's scouting
points. It is akin to asking if your list can have any Irr A's? It is not
pointing out whether you do or don't but saves the time of having to go and
look, all in the spirit of getting the game going and not dragging by counting
points or looking up your opponents' lists.

The only way you could be short 1 scouting point would be 2 LI infantry stands
missing or a single loose order cav stand missing and the only way that could
happen would be if it were a general's element. The fog is now gone. At least
with regards to any ambushes in anything other than woods.

I do think that there should be some form of disception allowed within the
game. Scouting points as long as you don't exaggerate your scouting ability is
quite harmless, but does allow you to hide or atleast confuse your opponent as
to exactly what troops you're deploying today.

If I know my opponent is shy say 6 scouting points, I can deduce 12 elements
of LI infantry are hiding, 6 elements of loose order cav is hiding or flank
marching or 2 elements of LC are hiding or flank marching. I will therefore be
able to act perhaps more conservative than I might have otherwise. If my
opponent is able to understate what scouting points he actually has, I will have
no reason to think there might be EHC in the woods or anyone force marching
until he starts rolling for it. You may argue that prudence is good sense
anyhow, but most good traps rely on your opponent being somewhat brash.
Thinking that he sees everything when in fact he doesn't is a perfect setup.
Chris



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Greg Regets
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


I like that idea a lot Kelly.

I can't even believe someone would do something like that. Your a better man
than me Kelly, or at least more patient. After about ten minutes of that, I
would be in the figure room.

Greg

----- Original Message -----
From: jwilkinson62
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules]X-Rules and fog of war


> At least in our area, I think the guys try to get the game going
asap, without doing things like sitting there and counting scouting
points for ten minutes. I believe the guys in Dallas even use a time
clock for movement, and if you sat there counting scouting points in
San Antonio, you will probably be asked if your husband or boyfriend
plays WARRIOR too. ~wink~


Actually, I remember a game last year at Historicon where Frank
Gilson took about 15 minutes(it seemed like forever) counting my
scouting points I had on the table. I sat there in the silence and
finally asked him if he was ready. He told me that he was counting up
my scouting points to which I replied that everything was on the
table in full view. Some of the Really great players like Frank will
do that. Personally, I have no problem with telling my opponent how
many points are on or off the table if it will facillitate moving the
game along. But I do agree, it does give your opponent too much
information in regard to your armies composition. One very good way
to fix this would be to report your scouting points to the tournament
director and have him write on the paring who is outscouted or not.
What does everyone think about that?

Kelly


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Mark Mallard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Yes i like the idea on declaring any number of scouting points upto the
actual points available. Good. No great idea.

I always roll for flank marches whether i have one or not. I thought that was
standard practice.

mm




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Mark Mallard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


>Actually, I remember a game last year at Historicon where Frank
Gilson took about 15 minutes(it seemed like forever) counting my
scouting points I had on the table. I sat there in the silence and
finally asked him if he was ready. He told me that he was counting up
my scouting points to which I replied that everything was on the
table in full view. Some of the Really great players like Frank will
do that. Personally, I have no problem with telling my opponent how
many points are on or off the table if it will facillitate moving the
game along. But I do agree, it does give your opponent too much
information in regard to your armies composition. One very good way
to fix this would be to report your scouting points to the tournament
director and have him write on the paring who is outscouted or not.
What does everyone think about that?

Kelly

Good idea for tournament play. Yes i think so.





In a message dated 7/11/02 2:04:07 AM GMT Daylight Time,
jwilkinson62@... writes:


> Actually, I remember a game last year at Historicon where Frank
> Gilson took about 15 minutes(it seemed like forever) counting my
> scouting points I had on the table. I sat there in the silence and
> finally asked him if he was ready. He told me that he was counting up
> my scouting points to which I replied that everything was on the
> table in full view. Some of the Really great players like Frank will
> do that. Personally, I have no problem with telling my opponent how
> many points are on or off the table if it will facillitate moving the
> game along. But I do agree, it does give your opponent too much
> information in regard to your armies composition. One very good way
> to fix this would be to report your scouting points to the tournament
> director and have him write on the paring who is outscouted or not.
> What does everyone think about that?
>
> Kelly
>




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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


In a message dated 7/11/2002 08:29:09 Eastern Daylight Time,
jjendon@... writes:


> > I always roll for flank marches whether i have one or not. I thought that
> was
> > standard practice.
>
>
> I used to do this too. It is however illegal and I do not do it any longer.
> I likedit because it added to fog of war, but the cries of cheese tactic
> made me realize I was in the minority.
>

Please remember that 14.0 is only a GUIDE - a recommended way to do
competition games - not an absolute that all competition games MUST be done
that way.

J


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


Hey, shouldn't IRR's be arranged in an irregular fashion on their bases to
show their irregularity? I know I do it that way, if I use troops that are
not based in this fashion I say so.

David "Base Ho"


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Mark Mallard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


it actually says it is illegal in the rules?

all our group do it - we think it is fair.

my copy of rules not with me to check.

mark


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Mark Mallard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


If you roll for a flank march then you are telling your opponent you have one.

Seems to defeat the object. Now your opponent can prepare.

mark


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Rules and fog of war


yes i see both sides of the argument.

maybe not forcing a flank marching player to roll for its arrival would be a
good idea.

so the flank marching player could delay giving the game away.

mark


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