Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Todd Schneider]

OK, need some ideas for running Late Period Berbers with the Spanish Allies.

A lot of options available, in particular with the LC and some support troops. I'm looking at running the Spanish Allies as HK, because I am not quite sure the jump to EHK is worth it.

Thanks,
Todd

[Frank Gilson]

I'd say you're correct, that the HK upgrade is necessary, but EHK is not.

You are required, however, to upgrade half the HK to EHK in the Late Berber period.

I presume the desire to run Late is access to Almughavars.

The fundamental question is then whether to run Moogs, or not.

Try experimenting with the following list, containing no such, before running a version with them.

Berber CinC w/PA standard in 2E Irr B LC JLS,Sh unit @ 136
(not intended to ever charge anybody, just move around quickly)

2E Irr C MCm JLS,Sh @ 67
(this unit will support either the infantry, or the camel proof LC, to disorder enemy cavalry)

6E Irr C LC JLS,Sh camel proof @ 109
(required cavalry, made camel proof to operate against enemy LC with the camel unit)

3E Irr A HC L,Sh @ 85
(more required Berber cav elements, gives you one more potentially useful reserve unit...not intended to lead a charge)

2 units of 8E Irr C MI LTS,JLS,Sh @ 2 x 153 = 306
(12 elements are required, 32 man units of close order foot are most efficient with regard to casualites given and received)

3 units of 4E Reg C LMI B,Sh @ 3 x 74 = 222
(all the shooters in a very efficient organization, although there is some argument to run these in 2 units of 6E each)

Spanish Sub w/P standard in 2E unit of Irr B HK L,Sh @ 110

3 units of 2E Irr B HK L,Sh @ 3 x 91 = 273

6E Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh/B @ 91

3 units of 4E Irr C LI S,Sh @ 3 x 49 = 147
(these are designed not to put out much shooting, but rather to absorb enemy shooting while in skirmish, protecting your archers and mounted)

6E Irr C LI JLS,Sh @ 61
(some LI designed to chase away enemy LI, or safely explore woods, etc., use it to protect your LC against enemy LI with bows)

18 units, 2 commands, 56 scouting, 1601 army points

Try it this way. Note that you can adjust your list to get a Ditched Palisade if your tabletop warrants it.

Use combined arms...shooting a knight charge in with your concentrated bowfire, or pinning enemy with your close order foot, getting into combat, then sending in lancers.

Combine LC and LI to destroy enemy lights.

[Mark Stone]

Todd,

Here are a few ideas I have off the top of my head. Caveat: these are stated from an open tournament perspective, not a historical matchup perspective.

First, a couple of traditionally sturdy troop types in the Berber army look considerably shakier given the current status of list rules for Roman and Alexandrian foot. "Moogs" have gone from near certain pike-killers to guys who win on the first bound and then start feeling fatigue in a big way. MI with LTS and JLS used to be a fair match against most other foot -- I used the Russ in this capacity for several years running the old Khazar list -- but now look quite brittle against top tier regular foot.

Second, the value of LC available on the Berber list has probably gone down with the advent of recent list rules. If your LC doesn't fight in a rank and a half, then it really isn't optimized attack LC in today's game. While the Berber LC have the option of lance, and should probably take it, this still means (a) you really don't want to supplement this with the Ghuzz, and (b) taking lance for light cav means giving up skirmish as an option, making you more vulnerable to missile fire.

In short: a few years ago I would have taken the "moogs", Berber spear, and all the LC I could get on this list with relish. Today I'd be more careful about how I bought the list.

I see two main options: a reactive option, and an attack option.

Reactive:
- Take a minimum of LC, probably 6 stands with L,Sh in one unit;
- Take plenty of LI: all the S,Sh, a small unit of JLS,Sh, and maybe all the B,Sh;
- Take the rest of the required cav as HC, and take 2 Berber generals as HC;
- Take all the Berber spearmen and bowmen as loose order, and upgrade them to regular; I'd recommend 2 6-stand units of JLS,Sh and 2 6-stand units of B,Sh;
- Take all the "moogs", but keep them in small units;
- Spend the rest of your points on HK.

Strategy: take 4 steep hills, look to choke the table with terrain, and set up a line with the loose order foot in the terrain and the LI in the gaps. Keep your one unit of LC behind your LI to guard against flank marches and deter casual charges at your LI by enemy LC. Keep the HK and "moogs" in reserve until your opponent commits, and then mass in response.

Attack:
- Take a minimum of HC (just the C-in-C), even taking an LC subgeneral;
- Take one or two units of medium camels, and make all your LC camel-proof;
- Take a couple of units of S,Sh LI, and a couple of units of JLS,Sh LI, but don't worry about the bow-armed LI;
- Take the spearmen as MI LTS,JLS,Sh and keep them as Irr to save points, taking 2 6-stand units;
- Take the bowmen in 3 4-stand units of Reg loose order;
- Take few "moog" units, but make them bigger;
- Take a bunch of HK.

Strategy: Hope your opponent has a wing of LC of some significance, and that you can guess which wing it is. Choose terrain to maximize your chance of being right about which wing will be the LC wing. Put your LMI B,Sh right on the front line on this wing, side by side with MCm and LC. The aim is to use the camels to disorder his LC, the bowmen to shoot up his LC, and your LC to charge him down. This can be a pretty ferocious attack if timed and spaced right. Think about this sequence:
- Step 1: disorder enemy LC with camels at 80p
- Step 2: shoot enemy LC for 2 CPF with LMI at 80p
- Step 3: he's now recalling disordered, putting him in the dread "must rally while disordered" situation;
- Step 4: Wait until next bound, and shoot him up again as you have good chances of getting a waver test out of him;
- Step 5: If the shooting doesn't do it, get your LC as close as you can and charge him impetuously. He's at least shooting disordered, and quite possibly tired and disordered at this point, so your LC has little to worry about.

Elsewhere, use your Sling LI and your MI LTS,JLS to form a line. Respond to any thrust on that line with ready "moogs" and HK that are being held in reserve. If he attempts to bolster his LC with LI support, send your JLS-armed LI to chase off his LI.

This isn't a "killer" strategy by any means, and against a number of armies it just won't work. But it's fun, it's often viable, and it's less reactive than sitting on your hills waiting for your opponent to decide what to do.

I've a great fondness for Berbers; it's a colorful and interest army situated in a fascinating time and place. You get a range of very colorful characters that pass through this army and its opponent armies. And while it isn't an "A list" open tournament army, it is quite playable. Good luck with your efforts.


-Mark Stone

[scott holder]

Todd: There's a 2003 NICT Berber list in the files section. I think that was the year Rob Turnball ran Berbers in the NICT but don't hold me to that.

scott

[Ewan McNay]

Todd K took Berbers, I think this last year, to the NICT. If Scott ever gets around to releasing those lists, I'll do commentary on them .

Of Mark's comments, the one that feels closest to my own initial impression is that on the weakness of the Berber LC, which is too bad for such a significant part of the army. The spearmen - well, sure, they lose to Alex pike (so does everything else!), but after playing Scots Common in my last tournament, I'd not be too concerned about their general usefulness.

Now, I haven't tried to put together a Spanish Allies list yet, so more substantive comment later.

[Todd Schneider]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm quite busy at the moment, but apprecite any suggesstions.

Looking forward to your NICT review Ewan.

I'll try this out, but heres why I'll be busy:

[Ewan McNay]

So: as has been noted, the advantage of late over middle period is the availability of Almughavars. The offsetting downside is the forced upgrade to EHK/HK units versus the cheaper HK/HC. I think Frank's list is slightly illegal: there are 12 required elements of LI JLS, Sh. Otherwise I basically like his approach. I am generally a fan of LI S, Sh, but in this list you're not planning to be particularly vulnerable to shooting, so I'd probably only take the required 4E; the mandatory two units of 4E each with B and S is an annoying requirement.

Going to the middle period also allows you to take more spearmen, if you wish. This army, I think, has to give up on fighting Alexandrians to anything other than a draw at best, because the pikes and even LHI are going to kill you. Given that, there's not too much else to worry about in terms of enemy foot -I would not stress about Romans - and so a longer line of spearmen than the 24 base available elements is perhaps worth considering (although the Reg B Black Guard get significantly more expensive, but allow for at least a little manouvre).

So: I basically agree with Frank/Mark's plans: take some camels with camel-proof LC, the reg LMI bowmen, stick to HK instead of EHK. I'd take only minimal missile LI, and 2-3 units of JLS, Sh guys to clear your lines and allow for the spear line to go forward. Sorry, nothing earth-shattering in terms of thought here, except that there are a *lot* of armies who will have trouble with a spearmen line. The base list gives you 3 8E units, which covers (assume 25mm for a moment) almost 3 feet of table; that's actually not much, hence the need for terrain, perhaps. Adding a bunch of e.g. Black Guard extends the line significantly. I guess I do agree that you should make sure that your MCm/LC/LMI wing is strong enough first, before adding more spearmen, and that win itself is covering significant frontage. You may even outscout some opponents, which would be handy and allow full force-march of spearmen if desired.

[Todd Schneider]

Well, the first opportunity I have to use these troops is in a month or so, and it's at 1200 points. So heres what I am looking at currently. If this was a 1600 pointcomp, I'd do a few things differently.

CinC 1E Irr B LC L, Sh @ 140
Sub Gen 2E Irr B HK L, Sh @ 110
4E Berber Cav Irr C LC L, Sh @ 73
4E Berber Cav Irr C LC L, Sh @ 73
2E Tuareg Camelry Irr C Mcm L, Sh @ 55
6E Berber Spearmen Irr C LTS, JLS, Sh @ 121
6E Berber Spearmen Irr C LTS, JLS, Sh @ 121
6E Slingers Irr C S, Sh @ 61
6E Slingers Irr C S, Sh @ 61
2E Spanish Cavalry Irr B HK L Sh @ 91
2E Spanish Cavalry Irr B HK L Sh @ 91
4E Almughavers Irr B LMI 1/2 HTW, JLS, Sh; 1/2 HTW, JLS @ 79
4E Almughavers Irr B LMI 1/2 HTW, JLS, Sh; 1/2 HTW, JLS @ 79

Two Commands, 38 Scouting Points, 1187 points so far. All LC is Camelproof. With the Errata update, the minima for the LC and LI is reduced, making the list a lot more viable IMO.

The lack of LI is something I think can be alleviated by terrain and one of the LC units, but I am wondering if I have to much mounted.

Thats a new concern forme, considering the Army I have been running hasno mounted in it.

Thanks,
Todd

[Todd Kaeser]

Ewan and Todd,

Don't forget to check the errata - there are MANY changes to the list - including a reduced minimums for LC and LI.

My list in the NICT didn't work very well.

C-in-C 2E Ir B HC L,Sh + PA (160)
4E Berber Cav Ir C LC Jls,Sh (73)
4E Berber Cav Ir C LC Jls,Sh (73)
4E Berber Cav Ir C LC Jls,Sh (73)
4E Ghuzz Ir C LC Jls,B,Sh/B (69)

6E Berber Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh (61)
6E Berber Javelinmen Ir C LI Jls,Sh (61)
6E Berber Archers Ir C LI B,Sh (61)
6E Berber Slinger Ir C LI S,Sh (61)

6E Berber Spear Ir C MI LTS,Jls,Sh (121)
6E Berber Spear Ir C MI LTS,Jls,Sh (121)
6E Berber Spear Ir C MI LTS,Jls,Sh (121)
6E Berber Spear Ir C MI LTS,Jls,Sh (121)


Christian Ally 2E Ir B EHK L,Sh + P (130)
2E Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh (115)
2E Knights Ir B EHK L,Sh (115)
4E Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls 1/2Sh (79)
4E Almughavars Ir B LMI HTW,Jls 1/2Sh

I would reduce the LI/LC by a lot - the Ghuzz in 25mm were a huge waste of pts.

w/ the points I would take 2 units of LMI B,Sh regs - the Moogs would be just fine w/ 2E units - they are for gaps anyway.

Just my thoughts.

T. Kaeser