Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

The Early period Aragonese have been a long-standing tourney favorite of a number of good players and one-time (perhaps once and future) "killer army".

I had trotted out a knights/moogs no-longbow doubles list I was musing over a while back. The concept has always stuck in the back of my mind for a 1600-pt army.

I have come up with the following that might be worth trying out.

1x CinC 2E IrB SHK/EHK L,Sh(PA) @196
2x Sub 2E RgA SHK/EHK L,Sh(P) @156
4x Knights 2E IrB SHK/EHK L,Sh @124
1x Jinetes 6E IrC LC JLS,Sh @97
3x Moogs 6E IrB LMI HTW,JLS,1/2-Sh @106
1x Xbow 6E IrC LI CB @49
1x Slings 6E IrC LI S,1/2-Sh @55
1x Grenadines 4E RgC LMI B,Sh @74

Seven units of SHK is usually a good solid core of shock troops, and with the addition of 3 large units of moogs the two parts cover each others weakness well. Moogs can fight and get an advantage over enemies that SHK do not really want to tangle with (optimally) and the SHK, in addition to providing their own shock value against many troops, provide a great second-punch versus enemies against whom moogs start to lose their advantage after the first bound of HtH. And in extreme cases these SHK units, especially the sub-generals, are set up to dismount as sometimes very handy SHI/EHI 2HCW/JLS units. Moogs also can serve decently as "terrain troops" if required but this is hardly ideal.

One likely weakness of this army as built above I must admit is against light troops, lacking both heavy-duty missile power (and/or missile resistance) as well as sufficient cheap fast units capapble of absorbing fatigue in chasing down enemy lights. Note that is not saying this army's light troops (or even the lack thereof) are a weakness _per se_ (after all, most medieval knight-based armies share this to some degree), just that there is not a real plentiful number of ways to fight enemy lights. To save points for moogs and knights ahoy I am not taking the longbow option above. The addition of the Grenadines helps, and perhaps mixed in with the jinettes and what service can be obtained from the LI (the slingers being actually somewhat useful) there may be enough here to keep the way clear to more worthwhile enemy targets. In fact, the Grenadines are likely much more useful in the context of the rest of this army than longbowmen would be.

But on a positive note I can at least have a Calatrava sub-general and a Santiago sub-general!

I am curcious if the assembled wisdom would...
a) consider this even worth pursuing by someone with my abilities and temperment as a some-time alternative to playing Moldavians
b) suggest any way of tweaking this around to make a successful some-time open tourney list (with the same 'ability and temperment' comment in mind)
c) have any idea with the new assortment of open-toruney "killer foot" how these moogs, or dismounted SHK/EHK combo, stand up anymore (given at least that they might have follow-up support from SHK units like this) - probably a whole topic all on its own there

Also interested in Timurids as a "second army", but I know from experience that I enjoy playing the SHK/moog combo wheras Timurids are a very good army which I should be able to make into a shock cav army with good lights and missile troops but much more unsure about just exactly how - and why play them as such when they seem so much like my first army anyhow.

[Mark Stone]

John,

You've put together a good non-longbow list here, and there's only one thing I would tweak: take one of your 6-stand "moog" units and turn it into 2 2-stand units. You'll inevitably find there are times when you need a smaller unit to fit in a gap, hit a flank, etc. Also, using a small unit next to your own LI to chase off enemy LI/LC is more efficient that either (a) letting enemy lights have their way with your, or (b) using a larger foot unit just for chasing lights.


-Mark Stone

[Dwyight]

Is this army vulnerable to armies that can cover larges fronts by virtue of having lots of cheap or highly mobile troops?

[joncleaves]

John

I play this a lot and have taken it to second in the 25mm Teams twice, and second in the NICT once, as well as won many local events. I would say thought, that i always took the english command. The AG and the long bow in four units for a five unit ommand.

I don't like the 6E moogs. Makes you think you can fight things you can't and can't fit into places you need them. 2-3 x 2E is enough.

I like your regular subs, I have not done that but it is the next change I am going to make.

I like the grenadines in 2 x 2E units - great little support troops.

Jon

[Mark Stone]

[John Murphy]

[Frank Gilson]

You should consider your moogs operating next to your knights, the latter mounted usually, but occasionally dismounted (vs. elephants.)

In some situations they charge together. In others (against spear or pike armed enemies) the moogs charge first, then the knights.

As Mark says, your relatively poor quality lights are there to slow up the enemy, but they won't last more than a couple of bounds...so your knight and moog force has to hit a vulnerable part of your opponent's army as fast as possible before one or both of your flanks collapse.

The moogs should be in smaller units...I don't like 2E units because they can get shot to pieces...but 4E units seems reasonable, sometimes operating in column.

Frank

[John Murphy]