Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Scott McCoppin]

In reference to the CW Later Hoplite List: I am looking to possibly add some spartans in all of their permutations and was wondering:

Is there a visible difference between the Spartiates, the Lakedaimonians, and the remaining 50% of the hoplites as you follow the list? My Osprey Greek book does not seem to differentiate - and I am always a bit skeptical about following the Osprey books 100%....

In other words do they all look the same?

Thanks!
Scott

[Michael Bard]

The Spartiates adopted the Lamba symbol in the 420s to the best of my knowledge. Anything before that their shields were as variable as anybody else's.

For pure Spartiates I would go with all red cloth, red plumes, and the Lamda shield (red capital Lambda on plain bronze background). I would also go with the Foundry Spartan figures as they have the long braided hair.

For Lakedaimonians, I would go with all red cloth, red plumes, but have the shield painted with the various symbols. If the army is post 400 BC then use some Peleponnesian city allies for the letter. IF you go with Foundry Spartian figures, you could use the Lamda symbol for these, using the non-long/braided hair for differentiation.

For allies, I would go with variable colours for all of the above. Shields either various symbols, or the letter of allied city states.

A final note is that all this is my best guess. Hoplite shields are a wild and confusing subject. A case could be made to have all hoplites everywhere have red tunics, particularly mercenaries, with maybe the odd exception. Shield design styles changed with period, but then you quickly run out of designs. Good luck!

[Bill Chriss]

This is, particularly before the Peloponnesian War, largely a matter of conjecture. I am not familiar with Mike's reference to the 420 adoption of the lambda shield symbol, so can't comment on that. We know that it became common at some point. One thing I can add, however, is some guidance with respect to the constant references to "red." My own view is that while what we call red (probably more a dull scarlet/rose all the way to a rusty color) was the primary color for most Greek infantry for hundreds of years, followed by tan, white (cream), brown, and black; the Spartan tunics were more crimson, the color worn by the Oklahoma football team and found in tube paints under alaran crimson or rose madder. In other words, it was distinguished from other Greek reds by being more uniformly a darker "blood red." Thus the emphasis in the ancient sources on the subject and the legend that the Spartans wore the color to disguise any wounds in battle. This is only my own interpretation, however. I agree that Foundry figs are the way to go and that Mike has given logical and functional ways for you to differentiate your troops. [/i]

[Michael Bard]

I feel silly for having missed the "crimson" bit. He's right, I'm wrong.

However, one thought for the other Greeks. A lot of hoplites used the same colourization as Spartans to try and emulate them. So, a lot of other hoplites would be in crimson too.

As to my sources for the date, there are a number of them. I think it boils down to a description or comment dated to 424BC that lists the Lambda for the first time. A lot of my books are loaned out, and I can't remember exactly where.

For some general information on shield patterns, how they developed, etc., try http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content4.php/cid=203. If you don't know about it, I've got about 300 designs from various sources on my website at http://transform.to/~mwbard/historicals/hopliteshields.html. Be warned that there is a lot of graphics to download. I have notes on painting hoplites (and shields) online at http://www.deep-strike.com.previewyoursite.com/features/hoplites.htm.

I've even got 60 painted Spartiates from Foundry that I could be convinced to part with -- I've always been a big Athenian.

[Scott McCoppin]

Thanks for the guidance!

Of all of the weird things to know on the subject - the crimson was about it! As far as the Foundry Figs go - I would love to build an army with them, but my primary opponents haven't graduated into the big boy scale yet - so I will be building with the Xyston 15mm. For 15mm, they are great.

[Bill Chriss]

Ditto on Mike's comment about other hoplites imitating the Spartans in dress and colour. BTW, this is particularly true of Sparta'a Peloponnesian allies and of mercenaries, particularly those from the Peloponnessus (which is where many did come from).

[Michael Bard]

Well, if you're doing it in 15mm, I STRONGLY recommend doing the shield designs with transfers. If I was starting over again, I'd using transfers for my Spartiates for the crisper lines.

If you do use tranfers, you need to get something called "Decal Solvent" or "Decal Softener". They soften the transfer, make it shape itself to the shield better, and make it snug tighter against the shield. No bubbles, and no folds in the transfer.

[scott holder]

Decal solvent/softener is vital as Mike said. Model railroaders were the impetus behind its development.

Does anybody know where to get some? Brand name?

scott

[Scott McCoppin]

All,

I am alreay a fan of shield transfers and have had great results with Little Big Men Studios transfers. Here is the link: http://www.littlebigmenstudios.co.uk/Shield%20Transfers.htm

For the simple Spartan Lambda, I will most likely work with the VVV shield transfers. BTW, both brands are now available from Wargames...www.speartorifle.com (the LBM transfers are not listed on the site yet)

Micro-Mark is a great resource for general purpose tools and accessories to help the modelling world. They have a complete decal system that includes the solvent/softener. Here is the link: http://www.micromark.com/

I hope that this helps everyone.

Scott M

[Rhoxolani]

I thought they were called Lakedaimonians because of the Lambda sign on their shield. Spartiates was the name of the officers as stated in "john Warry ancient warfare."

Regards Friso

[Bill Chriss]

I'm not sure how to interpret your statement, Rhoxy. Lakedaemonians were called Lakedaemonians because the Greek words that describe the Spartan city-state are Lakonia and Lakedaemonia. SParta was the "capital city" of that state. Hence anyone who was a countryman/national of that state was a Lakedaemonian. The Lambda on the shield was merely a convenient insignia because it was already the first letter of Laedaemonia or Lakonia (where, btw, our English word laconic derives from). Thus, Argives painted A's on their shields, Sicyonians used sigmas, etc. Spartiates were the elite who were admitted to full citizenship within the Lakedaemonian state. Lakedaemonian or Lakonian refers to nationality. Spartiate refers to citizenship. Similarly, "American" connotes one thing; U.S. citizen another, although they are often used interchangeably. Don't ask me the difference between Lakedaemon and Lakonia--I'd have to look it up

[Rhoxolani]

Cheers for that answer bill, that clarified the matter for me. I was under the impression that lakaidomians were Spartan citizens.

Regards Friso