Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

Any thoughts on tactical usage of artillery and/or handgunners (could say the same for fire syphoneers)... in the context of a mostly mounted army centered about knights, light cavalry and light infantry?

Also, are Irreg loose HG as much worse than Reg loose HG as I might think?

[wargame692000]

Hi,
I use Handgun quite a bit. Many troop types that suffer 2 CPF from shooting that includes Art or HG must waver test.
For example I combine LMI HG with LMI LB in Early Burgundian. Just 2 element units of Handgunners are enough. Tactically you want to move them up to range but where possible out of arc of an opponant shooter. You also need them to be in skirmish in order to shoot from a 2nd rank and evade if charged. Obviously this is easier to achieve with Reg units. They are also cheaper to purchase in smaller units.
A similar tactic will work with Art. They are harder to manouver but easier to get into range.
In a mounted army, keeping the HG armed units "up" with the rest of the army will be a real challenge. With no other foot units to support them, they will be easily picked off by opponents.

Cheers
Paul Collins.

[John Murphy]

My problem thinking about huandguns is that most foot in torunament Warrior armies has missile capability at more than 40p. There are exceptions but mostly I think this is true, and the exceptions are either just not a problem for my other troops. Handgunner almost never have shields, so being outranged they are usually going to have difficulty onthe approach, people just generqally do not leave you missile-free approach lanes that you can just waltz a HG unit down. Going into skirmish helps if the initiative roll will let you do it, but in some cases even skirmish will not save you from a bad result. And this even presumes loose HG units, close order it is even worse although perhaps for some of those if you do not get Sh at least Pa is an option but then skirmish is not even an option.

Then to make matters worse I am looking at having to get a small unit of Irregs, and pay 25 pts for the command factor plus pay for LHI. So for 50 pts I get a tiny 2E unit that still gets whacked by enemy shooters and only puts out 5 shooting sfigures in 2 ranks _if_ I can get them into skirmish, and a bigger unit might be possible and better but still there are a lot of issues, which is probably why there are not many HG troops out there.

Artillery, on the other hand, is intriguing at least. It would seem to be something that takes some skill to use but can be rewarding, it sedom works for me (now Byzantine fire syphoneers are another story) but it seems to actually work for a lot of folks I play with/against. Here the range issues are reversed, and the double-figures means a bombard is shooting at extreme range about as well as a HG element, maybe better. And at close range they are downright deadly.

Not only that, in my immediate area of concern the Arty is regulars and so I do not have blow 25 pts just for a CF.

However, it is hard to set up a shot with bombards and takes several turns of planning or the skill to arrange things so they just come out right. But at least this present a threat that forces a response... and hopefully that response is something that can be taken advantage of by knights or lights.

And come right down to it, okay 8 crew x2 shooting @4 is going to do 48, halve that for extreme range. There are plenty of units big enough to shrug off 24 casualties (really, any unit over 13 figs probably does not care too much).

My medieval bombards and teams of oxen do not conjure up images of the French Imperial Guard Horse Artillery here, but I do think they are something that produces an effect in the opponent. And they provide a way to impact large immobile enemy formations form a distance where they might create chances.

[Mark Stone]

Fire Syphoneers: Dont' use them. Too expensive, and too hard to make effective. These guys are here for historical scenarios, possible campaign settings, but have no place in a tournament venue.

Handgunners: Handgunners can be useful in various ways, and I actually have some lists on which I use them. Here are relevant cases:
* LI HG: These guys are generally regular, and regular LI always has some virtues. In addition, these can be a cheap, low risk way to make sure that some of the shooting a body receives is HG damage, and this actually has meaningful consequences.
* LMI HG,Sh: You can get these guys on Knights of Saint John, and I take them. They do a fine job of driving off enemy light troops with charges, they can anchor a flank in woods or on a steep hill, and they can actually menace a pike or elephant unit if you set this up carefully.
* LHI HG,2HCT: You can get these guys on Italian Condotta, and they are worth considering. LHI 2HCT by itself is a very menacing troop type, and giving them something that enables them to go into skirmish and evade away from danger is a big plus. Sometimes you actually do some shooting with the handguns, but that's just a bonus.

Artillery: I used to take bombards on Knights of Saint John, but don't any more. Artillery seldom does real damage, but can have a channeling effect on your opponent. In large formations (3 or 4 models) it puts out enough damage to create a "kill zone" your opponent doesn't want to enter, and you can then build a battle plan around the advantage of having that kill zone.

Anyway, those are some basic initial thoughts. Hope that helps.


-Mark Stone

[John Murphy]

Thanks Mark,

The examples with HG you point out are to some extent not relevant for a HG-only no-Sh non-LI unit, except that perhaps that is exactly your point. The ones 'most' lists have are not really do-able as even marginal combat units as they have no other weapons and no Sh. So that statement you made about "sometimes they shoot but that is a bonus" is very revealing and that is mind you with a unit with Sh.

The artillery you have some good comments and are making me think about. I just can not see spending the points on a 3-4E 12-16 crew figure (24-32 shooting) unit, this is not LBS and there is always something else I would rather get for that amount of points, but I have seen 2E 8-total-crew units made to work sometimes, just never managed to do it myself. It is possible that the proper use of artillery may simply be at a level of play higher than where I will be for a while.

But I would be interested in any ideas someone has worked up for...
a. Setting up terrain to work with artillery
b. Deploying artillery to make the best use of it
c. (maybe trickiest?) moving artillery into shooting position and what to look for to find good spots to set it up to shoot, as well as the timing of it (especially an issue for bombards which take some planning ahead I would guess)

Genrally I do not see protecting the artillery as an issue, if the enemy starts coming after them then probably my plan, hopefully there is one, is working.

Just as an aside I have used the fire syphoneers effectively and I am a poor player. Very very expensive, yes. But they are easier to set up a shot than HG, and they have Sh which makes a world of difference in apporaching plus at least they are loose Regs, and the shot they set up is a whopper, akin to hitting something close range big-unit artillery PLUS the incindiary effects. So I would rate them as something very effective but, okay, worth questioning the points cost, not so much purse waste (like mounted crossbowmen) but is there something else more efficient. But I would not just say "never take them for tournies".