Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Noel White]

I'm looking for some tactical advice using scythed chariots.
I'm finding that my opponents have to do very little to nullify their effects.

For example: I line the Scy Ch up against an intended target in deployment.
my opponent sees this, and during 1st marches manages to move his units adjacent to the intended target a little further up, maybe 40+ paces. My chariots race-off towards these new "closer" targets in an oblique direction ending up 240 p away. 2nd bound, he doesn't move his foot, and my chariots are obliged to move closer as much as possible. Due to the oblique approach, they'll end up just outside of charge reach, but within 120p. 3rd bound, his close order foot approach 80p, The chariots are forced to charge them without scythes and destroy themselves.

I'd like to note that the chariots have been moving at top speed all this time, until the bound of contact, where turn sequence makes it appear that they put on their brakes just before the fight...

Can anyone help me out?
Noel.

[Frank Gilson]

Scythed Chariots are a 'gimmick' or 'expendable'...they operate under very strict rules...and they're inexpensive for that reason.

In order to get best value from them you have to support them, like any other troops...otherwise yes, as you see, they uselessly shoot forward to their doom, giving your opponent free points.

The trouble is that if you force march anything, you have to force march the scythed chariots...so if you don't want to force march them you can't force march anything. Try force marching some of your close order foot alongside them and see if that helps.

Try putting all your scythed chariots with a sub-general and sending that command on a flank march...but...make sure you can also put substantial forward pressure on that flank or your sub with sc. ch. will arrive and fluff about uselessly.

Frank

[Ewan McNay]

Scythed chariots are great for chasing away opposing LI; especially in concert with your own lights. So, it helps to be able to deploy them after the opposing screen.

It's perfectly legal to pair them with your own troops and then block their path in approaches. Sleazy, but legal .

Often more effective on wings; higher chance of being faced by mounted, who take a waver as soon as they get into contact. Which means they're unlikely to get to contact - but now you have a wing which is evading your chariots, not doing anything useful, and on the defensive. Good value.

[Mark Stone]

[joncleaves]

Uh, no, that is not legal. No disputing it is sleazy, though....

This from 16.24:

"• No expendable or body friendly to it may ever voluntarily move such that there is a friendly
body between the expendable and the nearest enemy body."

The intent is that exactly what Ewan describes is illegal. If there is some element of the rules that you feel can be interpreted to mean you can do such a thing, please point it out to me so that I can fix it.

[Ewan McNay]

Well.

(i) I'm clearly wrong; playing to a previous version of the rules, apologies.
(ii) Ye gods, that's a stupid rule . Shouldn't be surprised, though; I know of at least two of the four horsemen who violently dislike scythed chariot use .

Again, apologies for the error. Mea culpa.

[joncleaves]

I would not otherwise comment, but I have to here because my position is being misrepresented, to say nothing of the purpose of the rule.

I do not "violently dislike scythed chariot use". In fact, I own some.
What is true is that I prefer the tourney scene did not permit such free reign with items in 16.0. They represent a tiny fraction of actions in ancient history and detract from what the game should be all about. Their (over)use causes me to like playing Warrior in tourney events less and less.

But our customers love 'em, and ultimately it is they we serve.

That said, we still have a duty to see that the way they work (if not the frequency of appearance) matches our understanding of their history.

[Frank Gilson]

I think my advice, at least, is still good .

You must use the scythed chariots in a manner that is directly supported by the actions of the rest of your army. They cannot be deployed alone to any significant effect.

One ideal, as Rob Turnbull has demonstrated, is to use the Sub-Gen + Scythed Chariot flank march on a flank with otherwise totally open terrain, and push on that flank hard with troops like elephants and pikemen. Give that a shot, definitely.

Frank

[Noel White]

Thanks for the advice.
Some of it I thought of (the flank march) and tried it. I'll give it another go, but my two local opponents are getting wise... I'm playing Late Achaemenid Persian, and my period opponents are Later Greek Hoplite (Spartan or Athenian flavour) Alexandrian Macedonian and -- Polybian roman (no cigar for that one).

I've been trying "historical" use with little success against historical period armies. My understanding is that the Scy Ch were used to dislocate the dense enemy foot, for a follow-up with real warriors (at least that was the intent). So I mass the Ch on a vulnerable-looking enemy flank, throw lots of decent period cavalry and some loose foot behind and look for the gaps.

Historically I understand that the chariots were countered with light troops, prepared 2nd lines and fancy parting-of-formations (though I'm skeptical of that one).
None of my opponents bother with these typical counters (the foot don't even try to get out of the way) because my chariots kill themselves. My follow-up troops are left in vulnerable positions, and it really doesn't work.

I guess I was hoping someone would know about a rule/tactic that makes this all possible.

Noel.

[Adrian Williams]

I find that the tournament success of scythed chariots is dependant largely on the tournament format. You would not see a single scythed chariot most years in any Australian 15mm tournament. You would not necessarily see a lot of them at Newcastle tournaments on their massive tables.

But in the last few years (with the exception of the recent MOAB) MOAB in October and the April tournaments in Sydney where it is 25mm on 6 by 4 tables you tend to see quite a few. The ability to get out of the way or effectively deal with them with light troops is diminished with the smaller tables.

Adrian

[scott holder]

First of all, what Jon said. I like gimmicks because of the color they add to the game. I dislike gimmicks when they become the deciding tactical issue in a tourney game that typically far outweighs their historical impact. Like I said, what Jon said. We've spent years fine tuning these things so that they remain in the game as color, provide some interesting tactical possibilities while not becoming stooopid they way some of them were in TOG. If you like stooopid gimmicks as the raison d'etre of your army, play TOG.

One thing these also do is the obvious unease causes. However, in order to maximize that, you really need an aggressive stance with the army with lots of impacty things right there with the chariots. That assumes you're not using them simply to blow away screens and such as has already been described.

Noel: the flank marching idea first popped up via Ed Bernhart and Galatians. I ran Galatians in a Mini about 4 years ago. Two flank marches, each with a general, each with 2 scythed chariots and Galatian HC/MC. All the close order foot sits on the table under Hold orders until the first flank march arrives. Even with this sub-optimal army (as opposed to Seleucids or something), it's a pretty good tactical ploy.

Once.

In a tourney setting, you can pull it off in the first round. Thereafter, the gossips known as Your Fellow Tournament Participants will "spread the word". Thus, your subsequent opponents will attempt to put as much crap on either flank as they can. If successful, it sorta makes the gambit much less successful. At least that's what happened to me in the Mini.

scott

[AntiokosIII]

I like the limits placed on scythed chariots because they were far too powerful and far too cheap under TOG. They were, as Jon says, a gimmick that rarely worked historically and almost always worked in the game.

I hate the limits placed on scythed chariots because they force the player to "play stupid" and use troops in a foolish and ineffective manner. This sort of rule is a an open invitation to abuse by the overly competitive (like yours truly).

I would very much prefer a completely different scythed chariot rule that actually encourages historical use (ie they only work if you use 'em right) but still retains that small chance of whacking some big important unit and routing it right off the bat. I have absolutely no idea how to accomplish this feat. I suspect that if the Horsemen knew how to do it they'd have done it. Given the way the game works, the setup we've got works....reasonably well, altho it's clunky and unsatisfactory. I confess, again, my utter inability to improve on the current system, though, so I will just shut up and paint.

[Noel White]

Yeah, I wouldn't want them too good either. But i would like my enemy to feel like has to take some measures to protect himself.

I think my biggest problem is the lack of control. I'd like to be able to hold them and release them against a target at the right time. Does anyone know of any exploits? How can I channel them?

"• No expendable or body friendly to it may ever voluntarily move such that there is a friendly body between the expendable and the nearest enemy body."

When the closest enemy is askew (instead of directly ahead), this rule is pretty harsh. I've seen circumstances where by obeying this rule a player is forced to disobey his attack/rush orders -- causing a mind explosion. The friendly bodies between the askew enemy (including the other chariots) are unable to move because they would be "between" the enemy and the chariot on the far end of the line. It also really screws-up initial march moves, especially with my LC by preventing them from moving forward.

My opponents also force the chariots to expose their own flanks -- move any foot unit closer, chariot follows, then move mounted to the now exposed flank. the foot unit is saved and the chariot is destroyed this turn.
"But move your own mounted to cover your chariot " you say, well if I moved first I can't, and if I'm moving second there is a good chance the enemy mounted is now closest and I'd be moving in "between", in fact, a charge at this enemy mounted would be moving in between also...

Unless I'm missing something, its almost impossible to keep them in line or heading in any consistent direction. I'm boggled.

Noel.