Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Tibor]

Hannibal in Italy

Am reposting from the discussion on Seleucids posts as the topic has crossed into another area.

>Even if we use a scale of just 4 elephants per figure, that gives too many elephants for what actually survived into Italy (27!)

>There is an excellent discussion of the trials and tribulations of Hannibal crossing the alps at http://www.livius.org/ha-hd/hannibal/alps.html

>So - is there a case for errata on the number of elephants Hannibal used in Italy?

Tibor

[Steve]

FWIW, here is my amateurs contribution to the topic.

The only book I have on the subject which is Head's ' Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars' gives a figure of 37 at the Trebia in 218 B.C.

Only 10 for Hasdrubal at the Metaurus in 207 B.C.

and they get no mention at all for Cannae or his other battles.

As a model elephant only represents up to 25, with the first element being as little as 4 you could perhaps make a claim for them to total only 12 elephants

I think what you also have to factor in is their psychological effect, particularly against an opponent that hated facing them, how far you could effectively spread even 27 Elephants, and A) do they have the correct impact in period for this particular army against its principal opponents and B) serve to counterbalance all those Roman List rules!

Steve

[Tibor]

[Steve]

Hello Tibor,

Some very interesting points, particularly those concerning ground scale and the Hannibal factor. Spreading them all across the line would certainly act as a brake on the Roman desire to close with his HI, so perhaps it physically needs that number of models present to equate to the powerful morale factor they actually had.

Hannibal's presence does certainly serve to boost his army, however, I note that the Roman reaction to elephants when facing them some sixty
years earlier against Pyrrhos was quite marked, almost desparate, with their hasty adoption of 300+ 'gimmicky' anti-elephant wagons and flaming pigs, so they obviously viewed them as a very serious threat and he reputedly had only 19 at Asculum. Not even as many as Hannibal.

And Hannibal himself saw them as an important enough part of his army to literally move mountains to get them across the Alps into Italy.

Throughout history, there has always been a Human tendency to attribute defeat to an enemy super-weapon, regardless of the numbers actually used. Then begins the slow erosion of morale, and you begin to see 100's of them, everywhere! I.E. Cossacks! in 1812, the initial German reaction to 'all those' KV1 and T34 tanks and the sheer number of Tigers and 88's deployed in Normandy. Discipline, training, the flexibility of their system and sheer naked courage allowed the Romans to bounce back.

Also, to a great degree, we as wargamers are conditioned by a level of experience that the men on the ground didn't have. I have never had to physically face one even once with just a 'little pointy stick'. To face their lead equivalents the number of times some wargamers have is more than the sum of most ancient armies experience (and I know that no matter how many there are, they can't really hurt me, so I can freely adopt ahistorical tactics. Hence the 'unease' rules for facing them never wear off, ever.

However, at the end of the day it's down to personal choice and skill. I could quite easily use 9 Burmese elephants and lose to a player who had 1, or even less.

I too will end this post, as it's all pure supposition on my part. Suffice it to say, that even in Fast Warrior, Elephants are included in List 70 but not in List 66. In a 1600pt army, 9 Elephants is a big slice of the military budget.

And throught the many years I have been a wargamer, there have always been disagreements over how many elephants a Carthaginian army List should have, particularly if you have to face 9 of them

To Plagiarise ever so slightly, 'Roll down and Lose You cheating .... , because I know that your army has far too many ..... '

Steve