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Advice on Sumerians Please

 
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Steve
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Advice on Sumerians Please

Hello All,

I am currently building up a Sumerian army for Fast Warrior and in preparation for its use under the full rules I am seeking some advice.

Its first (and main) opponent will be Elamite.

I know FW has no detachments, so that the only way to physically beef up the chariots to face all that bowfire is to attach LI figures to their base. Is this the best way to go, or should I keep the LI separate as a detachment and use them purely as a screen in FW?

The Levy Skirmishers are Irreg D LI JLS but can be Irreg C which might affect this.

The two LI units are both 12E, Should I look to keep them this big under the full rules?

Given their lack of strike power is it best to keep the chariots in 3E units?

The spearmen are 1/2 Reg C, half Reg D, how is it best to usually deploy them? I take it the S Std would be a good purchase?

Is the bodyguard unit (Reg B JLS or 2HCW,D) worth getting early?

Apologies for all the questions, but the more I paint and the more I read/practice, the more I realise just how subtle and challenging the rules are.

Thanks, Steve
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject:

First, a lot might change. Bill and I (mostly Bill at the moment) are doing a massive relook at BW so that will undoubtedly change the dynamic of the armies.

I run Sumerians in 25mm. I assume your questions pertain to in-period matchups only.

The Sumerian chariots aren't great. Any 2h chariot will simply run away from you and just about everybody else in the period that has 4 horse chariots has better ones. I take the same approach with Sumerian chariots as I do with Gallic ones: they are unease causes, nothing more. As such, buy em in 2E units and string em out in gaps between your Spearmen. You might find them helpful for blowing away LI screens in front of your Spearmen but only under circumstances that lets them get the hell outta harms way since this is an army that you want to avoid waver testing.

The LI bodies and size will depend on how you want to deploy them. If they're there to take up space and soak up missile fire, then I guess 12E bodies is the way to go. On the other hand, given how cheap everything is in this army, you can damn near line the board with Spearmen.

Bodyguards I wouldn't get. I don't even have figures for em.

Sacred standard, as just about everybody here will tell you, isn't cost effective.

Morale for Spearmen: I'm guessing that the "cost-effective" afficianados will tell you to go with as many Reg D Spearmen as you can, ie, don't have a unit that's entirely Reg C. At the very least, you'll want 1E in each unit Reg C so that you can prompt the unit to charge without taking a waver test. That's probably the best way to go across the board.

scott

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Steve
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:58 pm    Post subject:

Scott,

Thanks very much for a great reply;, whoever said nothing good ever came out of Missouri? Surprised

All really helpful advice. I bought the original figures (Essex 15's - I didn't even know you could get them in 25 mil) quite some while ago for DBM of all things. The idea of using a totally inferior army was what drew me to them, that and the donkeycarts Laughing

Your guidance has definitely saved me buying yet more unwanted lead and helped shape my own thoughts on this army. I didn't even know that you could mix the C's and D's in the same unit.

Have you ever used it out of period? And how did they do in reality against the Elamites?

I look forward to any possible List Rules (except maybe the summoning of a genuine Sumerian Demon as per that godawful film 'Evil Dead'). I have even tentatively suggested one myself Rolling Eyes

Thanks again, Steve
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject:

Scott,

Just one final question. I originally had a pike-based army (Macedonian) for DBM and 'double-based' the figures as I had 112 in total. Big mistake.

They got slaughtered almost purely because of it, particularly by being outflanked or when facing bow. Not yet sure how many Pikes the Sumerians will finally have, but there are 64 needed for FW alone.

In all my reading of the rules I haven't yet come across why this should now be any problem at all if I adopt the same approach to basing. Is this correct?

Thanks again, Steve
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject:

By "double basing" I assume you mean a base that's 1E wide and 2E deep with a total of 8 figs on it.

Sure, that should work fine. That's how I do it.

Keep in mind that since you can arm em with Pa in the front rank, they don't really care all that much about shooting.

Now, HTH is obviously another issue but it's not as if the Elamites have a horde of infantry killing anything. Sure, their Spearmen can have Sh but if you potentially have many many more.

I've never played Sumerians outside of period. There really aren't any armies in BW (right now) that can compete in a power-gamed Open environment. Midianites typically will foray out of period and have many things going for them but ultimately are a tough army to run.

scott

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Last edited by scott holder on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:28 pm    Post subject:

Sumerians are actually an *ideal* foil to Midianites. Impervious to shooting, and 2nd-round-shieldless MI are still better than always-shieldless MC in hth!

As Scott notes, out of period they will die almost instantly to anyone with a shield and a stick.

Otherwise - double-basing is fine, Warrior doesn't have the odd effects of that that DBM does, and one element of C class in a unit of D is indeed the way to go. Then roll forward en masse, not having any other options!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject:

Regarding Sumerians vs Midianites, as a Sumerian player, you also have a potential ton of LI to soak up missile fire. Of course your game will be spent having the horde of Midianite LI and your LI fighting it out (sorta the battle of the Network Losers). Moreover, every Midianite game I've seen, the player *hates* shooting with the monster camel guys unless he has a "good" target. Thus, I can see a game where the Midianite player tries to totally ignore your Spearmen and attempt to shoot and kill everything else in the army. Your goal would be to get every camel unit so that it's shooting tired, then think (long and hard) about using your chariots. Hmmmm, I think even standing tired camels shooting in support against a Sumerian HCh would give me pause as a Sumerian player.

And scale will play a big role in this. Despite what I'm saying above, I think Sumerians can act as Ewan states in 25mm, less so in 15mm. Also, Spearmen unit sizes need to be sufficiently large enough so that the Midianite player can't finagle 2 camel units into shooting at one Spearmen target and hope for the up rolls causing disorder.

scott

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject:

Thanks guys,

Even more invaluable advice. Never even realised 'til now that just one C class element out of 12 would nullify the waver test.

As for Pa - wouldn't go anywhere without them. advice about S standard duly noted. Bodyguard dismissed (was looking for the shock troops all us killer armies need Laughing , they obviously don't fit the bill. Crying or Very sad )

Chariots as just a scare tactic? Never even thought about it. Was looking at giving them detachments/bodyguard support Rolling Eyes Embarassed

So "Cry havoc and let slip the Donkeys of War" (but only on a very short leash and only against LI). Leave the real fighting to the men with the long pointy sticks, who don't even need to be 4 ranks deep!

Thanks, really appreciated.

I suppose I should also seek some advice for the Elamites as my would-be opponent is even less experienced than me.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject:

By "double basing" I assume you mean a base that's 1E wide and 2E deep with a total of 8 figs on it.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. And thanks for clearing it up, my old DBM scars run very deep over this.

There really aren't any armies in BW (right now) that can compete in a power-gamed Open environment.

What none? Shocked What about Libyans, they were still around to take on Marian Romans? If all those shieldless LMI/LI can make it, surely....

Steve
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject:

I love BW for gaming in period, it's my favorite. The armies look cool, there's just a flavor that I don't find anywhere else.

But again, we're in the midst of an exhaustive evaluation of all things BW so things could be different down the road.

scott

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject:

Hello Scott,

I wholeheartedly agree with your BW sentiment. But then I'm nearly old enough to remember the Sumerians!

And I'm sure if the recent past is anything to go by it will be an absolutely massive improvement. It's sentences like your second that I so often overlook, and I cannot even begin to estimate the sheer amount of work involved. I'm sure exhaustive means exactly that. I think it is a truly great shame that it doesn't get the wider recognition it deserves.

Hopefully seeing the many more varied armies now vying for top spot is some consolation. And if all yours and Bill's work helps to make BW armies compete on equal terms, or even reach the top of the pantheon, so much the better. I still think you'd have your work cut-out with Libyans though Laughing

Steve

(So come on guys, never mind early Saxon, lets hear it for the Libyans - BW List 5. Go on, you know you want to)
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