Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

Page 60, 6.45 Skirmish Formation, first paragraph -
"Note that 'in shooting range' in this rule means 'in shooting range of ALL of the body's elements." (emphasis on ALL is mine)

Jon,

Nobody plays this way...ever...we play that if ANY element of a body is in shooting range then you can do all the skirmish formation things.

However, I just noticed the ALL...Implications:
i) If a body is wide enough, and the opponent is careful, at least one element of the body will not be able to shoot, and so that unit cannot enter or retain skirmish.

ii) Infantry units deeper than two elements and mounted units deeper than three elements can never enter skirmish formation.

iii) Troops with shorter distance missile weapons, especially JLS, will generally be unable to enter or retain skirmish formation under most conditions.

Is this all correct? If so, then we all have a lot of changes to make in the way we point out and employ units intended to skirmish.

Frank Gilson

[Bill Chriss]

Good point, Frank, particularly concerning the inability of any JLS unit more than 1E wide to go into skirmish under most conditions. Width will now forever be a problem for skirmishers. However, I think your point about the depth of formation does not end up being problematic. Those rear elements (foot ot mounted) would be in range because range is measured to the target from the lead element ahead of each of rear rank shooting element, not from the rear rank elements themselves, if I remember my chapter 8 correctly.

[Ewan McNay]

Jevon showed me this one. One of those 'Wow. No-one has ever read that rule!' moments.

[Frank Gilson]

Bill,

Skirmishers don't determine range for their fire according to 8.6, but rather from 8.7 (page 77) "Units in skirmish formation may shoot with up to three ranks if mounted or two if foot. All these count as shooting from the front rank's position, but all ranks after the first shoot at half effect."

That seems to pretty clearly state that if you're an element beyond 2 deep if foot or 3 deep if mounted you are not shooting, not able to, and not in range...and thus combined with Skirmish rules, prevent the use of skirmish formation.

Frank

[Ewan McNay]

Another wrinkle on this, by the way, came up in the Theme with regard to part shielded units. Say a big unit of LMI in 4 ranks: 2 of JLS, Sh and 2 JLS.

When in skirmish, is this unit shot at shieldless?

Only the first two ranks _count_ as firing but the whole body is generally ruled to be moving to the front, just not with enough effect to add to impact, correct?

That might also be the out for some of the depth-based problems with adopting skirmish. The width-based problems remain.

[Frank Gilson]

Actually, what is shot AT in a skirmishing unit has nothing to do with depth or any 'reality check', particularly...but only the rule:
8.92 Shooting Weapon Factors, page 79
"If a target body is of mixed type and in skirmish formation, count it as them most vulnerable for shooting"

Which is clear and unambiguous, yet makes no statement whatsoever about range, in range, depth, distance...

So, you could have a 12 element unit of Samurai LEHI that contains one element of LMI Ashigaru...and is in column with the LMI as the 12th (last) element...and you shoot at it as shieldless LMI (albeit with the -2 for skirmish)...while that LMI element would never 'make it' anywhere to do any shooting.

Not that, given the rules as written, could such a column skirmish...

Frank

[Bill Chriss]

Frank,

You have not convinced me. I see no reason in the text that would indicate that 8.6's rule for measuring range for rear ranks is somehow inapplicable to skirmish formation. More importantly, before the unit enters skirmish is necessarily when the detrmination of range would be made to see if it can go into skirmish at all. At this point, even under your view of the rule, 8.6 would of its own terms apply. So I see the arc problem and the resulting JLS range problem, but I don't otherwise see a range or distance problem with respect to entering skirmish formation. Maybe I'm still suffering from post-H'con wooziness, however.

[joncleaves]

[[Nobody plays this way...ever...we play that if ANY element of a body is in shooting range then you can do all the skirmish formation things. ]]

You didn't just tell the author of the game that "nobody plays this way", did you? lol

[[However, I just noticed the ALL...Implications:
i) If a body is wide enough, and the opponent is careful, at least one element of the body will not be able to shoot, and so that unit cannot enter or retain skirmish. ]]

I think that might be theoretically possible.

[[ii) Infantry units deeper than two elements and mounted units deeper than three elements can never enter skirmish formation. ]]

Uh, no. 8.6 still tells one how to measure range. Note the last sentence in italics in the first para.

[[iii) Troops with shorter distance missile weapons, especially JLS, will generally be unable to enter or retain skirmish formation under most conditions. ]]

Not true that I can see, but "most conditions" is subjective and not a rules question, therefore debateable.

[Frank Gilson]

Ok...then in fact we are not to skirmish if any element of the body is not in range to shoot...got it.

Thanks!

Frank Gilson

[scott holder]

So, lemme make sure I have this straight, a unit of 6E LI, JLS, Sh, 3E wide, 2E deep, moves up to an opponent in such a way so that only the end element in the front is at 40p but the element at the other end is outside of 40p. That means the LI unit cannot go into skirmish?

scott

[Dwyight]

[quote="joncleaves

i) If a body is wide enough, and the opponent is careful, at least one element of the body will not be able to shoot, and so that unit cannot enter or retain skirmish. ]]

I think that might be theoretically possible.
[/quote]

Is lateral range measured from adjacent elements (in arc elements)?

[Frank Gilson]

Only arc is available from adjacent element (or phantom)...range is measured from the actual front rank element that wishes to shoot.

[joncleaves]

[[Another wrinkle on this, by the way, came up in the Theme with regard to part shielded units. Say a big unit of LMI in 4 ranks: 2 of JLS, Sh and 2 JLS.

When in skirmish, is this unit shot at shieldless? ]]

No.

[Bill Chriss]

Wow. A very nice argument for 2E Byzantine Psiloi units with front rank JLS,Sh and back rank Bow, or better yet, 4E or 6E LI units with front rank S, Sh and back rank Bow. I suspect that very many people have been playing the latter in skirmish as being shot at a factor of "0," i.e., shieldless LI in skirmish; whereas they should have been shot at a "-1."

[Frank Gilson]

The rule is:
8.92, second bullet point
"If a target body is of mixed type and in skirmish formation, count it as them most vulnerable (i.e. a mixed unit of LHI and LMI in skirmish formation would count as LMI) for shooting"

Jon, I don't understand then how to justify your 'no' above.

And your 'no' above would seem to permit Mr. Chriss counting a unit of 2E LI D,Sh/B as shielded LI if in skirmish with the B element behind the JLS,Sh element...

Is it the presence or abscence of armor and shields in the first two ranks if foot and the first three if mounted? ...not what the rules states...or something else?

How do the following get targeted as?

i) 4 element column of LHI/LHI/LMI/LMI JLS,Sh in skirmish...shielded obviously, but LHI or LMI? (rule would suggest LMI even though the LMI can't shoot).

ii) 6 element column of HC/HC/HC/MC/MC/MC B in skirmish...shieldless obviously, but HC or MC?

iii) 4 element column of LHI/LHI/LMI/LMI B in skirmish...LHI or LMI, and which shieldless factor??

Frank Gilson