Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ian Poade]

HI.

I know this has been gone over before, but I can only find a reference from some time ago under the white rule book, and the wording is a bit different in the black book.

Some of my opponents insist there has been a "reversal" regarding JLS+ in the second rank, specificaly when close order LTS JLS charge/counter charge.
My understanding is that if the whole second rank is eligable to fight, is double armed with JLS, and the enemy unit is of a type that the JLS+ counts for, then they all count the + for JLS.

Some however still insist that only 50% of the second rank figures can ever count as using JLS, therefore you can only ever count a maximum 50% (rounded up) as getting the JLS+.

Would just like to get a clear ruling on this before the next comp.

Thanks.
Ian P.

[joncleaves]

I am not aware of any situation where figures armed with JLS ever get to fight based on their JLS at more than half effect from the second rank, list rules excepted.

Can you tell me on what basis your friends are making this claim?

[Ian Poade]

Hi Jon.

Sorry, perhaps I was a bit unclear.

9.23 on page 82 talks about ranks after the first eligable to fight.
In that section there are references, amonst others, to LTS and JLS.

In certain circumstances a second rank armed with LTS fights at full effect.
So far so good.

9.3 on page 83 talks about Eligability for weapons use, including the + factor for JLS.

No one has suggested the full second rank based on JLS only, the situation arises when troops are double armed with LTS and JLS.

Some maintain that you "loose" the ability to count the JLS+ with every second figure in the second rank based on 9.23.

I maintain that 9.23 and 9.3 are seperate issues, and that once the eligability of a figure to be counted in the combat has been established under 9.23, then all the effects of 9.3 follow. This was clearly stated as such in old "white" rule book.

To give an exampl:
I say:
4 elemnts of Rus armed with LTS and JLS (in 2 ranks, good order, not tired etc) charge some MI, factor 3 + 1 (charge) + 1 (JLS) = 16 @ 5.

Some others say:
12 @ 3 + 1 (charge) + 1 (JLS) = 12 @ 5
plus 4 @ 3 + 1 (charge) (JLS not eligable) = 4 @ 4.

Hope this sets out the issue.
Thanks.
Ian P.

[joncleaves]

The "some others" are the ones who are correct.

there is never a situation - without a list rule - where all the figs of a second rank get a JLS +.

there is never a situation - without a list rule - where all the figs of a second rank get to fight because they have JLS.

therefore, without a list rule, there will never be a 4E unit of two ranks with JLS where all the back rank have the JLS +. there may be times when a back rank is 1/2 LTS with a JLS + and 1/2 just LTS, as in those times when a unit gets to count full back rank LTS.

this statement:

[ I maintain that 9.23 and 9.3 are seperate issues, and that once the eligability of a figure to be counted in the combat has been established under 9.23, then all the effects of 9.3 follow. This was clearly stated as such in old "white" rule book. ]]

is both correct and incorrect. yes, they are separate issues. no, being eligible to fight with a non-JLS weapon under 9.23 does not permit one to count the JLS + for that figure.

would it help if 9.3 said: the weapon factor bonus for a figure armed with *and eligible to fight due to* JLS....?

[Matt Kollmer]

That's interesting, I would have thought Ian was right.
An LTS unit fighting 2 full ranks (for whatever reason) would be the prerequisite, then if also armed with JLS, would add in JLS+....
The rule is pretty clear though, It might make it easier if the rule read somehow that another weapon doesn't enable the JLS to count more figs fighting:
Jon, I like your suggestion.

Thanks for posting this......as I've played that wrong every time!
Matt