Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

Discussed in some other post is the fact that if you break through a disordered body, you are disordered. Also, you may be disordered prior to that for some other reason.

If you break through, that's a mandatory Rally.

Thus, if you are disordered, and you break through (or break through a disordered body and are thus disordered), you must sit in place and Rally the entire following turn (you can't turn around and charge into the rear of the body you broke through, etc.)

Now the timing on disorder...A unit that would only be disordered due to being broken through is only disordered AFTER the enemy unit breaks through it, right? not during? Otherwise those who break through would always be disordered...

Is this all correct?

Frank Gilson

[Ewan McNay]

This came up in my game against Frank.

The mandatory rally is for troops that (among other possibilities) "break or are broken through." I read this (and Mark ruled) as being a contraction of "break through or are broken through," especially as a mandatory rally after being broken seems kind of silly .

Frank suggested that breaking through was *not* a mandatory rally cause.

*

Troops that interpenetrate a disordered body are disordered. However, the combat results section notes that breaking through does not, in and of itself, disorder the breaking-through body. Hence the disorder for the body being broken through *must* occur after the break-through is completed. [Otherwise, the mandatory rally noted above would always be at the end of the following bound, making a break-through much less useful.]

*

However, this is in contrast to the sequence we play if a shaken unit is broken through and fails the waver for a combat disorder thus caused: here the break-through is assumed to never occur - i.e. the disorder occurs at the instant the break-through move starts (and the breaker-through now pursues instead).

Together, this is not internally consistent. What is being played wrong?

[Frank Gilson]

I suspect that consistency would suggest the second example is being played wrong...that the waver test for combat disorder, if from being broken through, is done AFTER the break through is completed (which, if you read the rules carefully is done AFTER any recoil/follow up that may need to occur).

Note that we still treat all hth combat causes of disorder (from one combat bound) as 'simultaneous' even if, really, they don't occur at exactly the same moment.

So...a body achieves a break through result...against a shaken foe. Any recoil/follow-up are done, then the break through move is done, THEN the shaken body wavers...should it fail, it performs a rout...but the breaking through enemy is behind it.

This is my opinion, and Jon needs to weigh in...

Frank

[Bill Chriss]

Frank,

If you're right, I suppose that would mean that if a unit is disordered by combat, and then recoils in the same bound but is prevented from doing so and thus disordered by its post-combat movement, this would cause a waver test. I have not seen it played thus, but rather that such disorders are "simultaneous." The same would apply for foot charged by mounted and receiving 3 cpf or 1 cpf and twice as many. First they would be disordered by combat, then by post-combat movement, i.e., "recoil disordered." Right? I see no difference between these two cases and the breakthrough scenario.

[Frank Gilson]

Except that all disorder resulting from the same hth combat has been judged to be simultaneous, regardless of the order in which various things are done (recoil, break through, etc.)

Frank

[Bill Chriss]

Yes. Thanks, Frank. I agree. But wouldn't the same logic equally apply to a breakthrough combat results move, or am I missing a component here that differentiates it from the other cases? I realize that your point is that John has not explicitly said so, thus your very legitimate question.

[joncleaves]

[[If you break through, that's a mandatory Rally.

Thus, if you are disordered, and you break through (or break through a disordered body and are thus disordered), you must sit in place and Rally the entire following turn (you can't turn around and charge into the rear of the body you broke through, etc.)

Now the timing on disorder...A unit that would only be disordered due to being broken through is only disordered AFTER the enemy unit breaks through it, right? not during? Otherwise those who break through would always be disordered...

Is this all correct? ]]

Yes.

[[However, this is in contrast to the sequence we play if a shaken unit is broken through and fails the waver for a combat disorder thus caused: here the break-through is assumed to never occur - i.e. the disorder occurs at the instant the break-through move starts (and the breaker-through now pursues instead). ]]

This is incorrect. One cannot take a waver for something that has not occured or did not occur. Frank's description of how this works is correct.

[Frank Gilson]

Ok...different situation...

A lancer unit charges impetuously and hits a halted, STEADY Irr MI JLS,Sh unit.

The unit of mounted lancers does 1 CPF and 3 times as many casualties to the MI unit.

The MI unit must recoil. The lancers have the option to break through.

The MI unit is facing 3 causes of disorder, 1 CPF and twice as many (or more), recoiling from mounted opponent, AND from being broken through (should the lancers actually break through).

Do the lancers get through and remain steady in this case? This is all happening at the 'same time'...and the MI unit was steady prior to the combat results.

Frank Gilson

[joncleaves]

I do not see any reason why the lancers would be disordered... Did they take 3CPF from the hand to hand?

[Frank Gilson]

I didn't see why they'd be disordered either...no, they did not receive any disorder result themselves.

Some folks (typically those being broken through) would suggest that the foot body is disordered by the combat, then the lancers break through, and are thus disordered...but it's all happening at the same time.

Frank

[joncleaves]

Indeed it is.