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Uighur Turk - Theme - K's 3rd

 
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:06 pm    Post subject: Uighur Turk - Theme - K's 3rd

Uighur Turk - list 24 - Oriental Warrior

CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,B 1/2 Sh (CP) - 168
Sub 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,B 1/2 Sh (CP) - 108

[3x] 4E Nobles Ir B HC L,B 1/2 Sh (CP) - 145 {435]

[4x] 2E Camelry Ir C MCm L,B 1/2 Sh - 54 [216]

[2x] 12E Bowmen Ir D (1E C) MI B 1/2 Sh - 101 [202]

6E Spearmen Ir D (1E C) MI LTS,Sh - 77

3x 6E Horse Archers Ir C LC B 1/2 Jls,Sh (CP) - 103 [309]

1515

2E Nobles Ir B HC L,B (CP) - 79

1594

(CP) = camel proof

Okay here folks. Another theme army and I took some of the suggestions that was in the Tactics section regarding camels and camel-proof cavalry and went with Uighur Turk.

There are 3 biggish units (4E) of HC lancers with bow which in the theme are pretty decent troops (having shields as well). There are also 4 units of camels. I was torn between having them as LCm or MCm (I think HCm is too expensive when you are trying to get volumes on the board), but I went with the MCm to try and get more combat units and denser shooting as well.

What I REALLY like is the 2x 12E of close bowmen. They are wicked cheap being Ireg D and 1/2 Shielded - 101 each. They cover a tremendous amount of space - even in 15mm. One would have to send in a fair amount to take them out and that would leave you opportunity elsewhere. The spearmen are compulsory, but not horrific IMO. In the theme very little will be able to ride them down. They can dominate a flank sector or be split up and run in the middle of your army to support your cavalry (might be too difficult to do that I realize)

There are 3 units of LC (also CP) which are in good sized units - 6E. They are cost effective being 1/2 Jls,Sh and all B. They don't fight a rank and a half, but you can't have it all I guess Rolling Eyes

It really lacks light infantry and anything that can go into rough terrain. This could pose some major problems if faced with a Mongol army that has a Chinese ally and a fair number of loose foot.

I was left at 1515 and wasn't quite sure where to spend the points so I bought another 2E Noble unit.

I like the list as it is different and the big blocks of bow are going to cause fits for cavalry only type armies.

I would rate this as a 6 for the theme, but a 3 for a regular tournament. It won't stand up to pike, chinese, late roman or other armies.

Thoughts anyone???

Todd K

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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject:

Strange again looking at the list, you should be able to do a lot with it, but I am struggling to see what, the camels allow you to disorder enemy, but otherwise are pretty poor, the HC is OK, but co-ordinating it with the MI is difficult.
I could see it giving me fits if I was playing against it, but with any loose troops and some dicing it is in big trouble.
Agree with the ratings, and could be a fun army to play with
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Terry D
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:33 am    Post subject:

I'm a bit more concerned by the lack of LC. The screen isn't that robust. Its not a list I would want to play.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject:

Terry,

I agree - and would like some LI as well. The benefit of the list is the two huge blocks of MI B 1/2 Sh. With the theme they are going to be a huge pain for cavalry armies as they will command a large portion of the battlefield AND they can now move 120 paces in approaches.

I have no idea how it would run, but with a wing of cavalry and camelry and a wing of close foot bow it should be difficult to face if you are mongol or another loose cav type army.

Get a little terrain on the board to restrict the board (major water feature) or marsh/steep hill and this could be scary IMO.

Keep the thoughts coming. It keeps my mind fresh and happy with thoughts of WARRIOR Very Happy

Todd K

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Terry D
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject:

You may not loose games with this list but you're not going to win many either. The mongol will pick up your MWF. Your HC are going to get shot up by a strong LC screen and then charged by fresh HC behind the screen. It will be tough to coordinate the movement of the MI with the cav unless you plan on a defensive game, which is tough to win.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject:

Hmm... I feel like this list has more potential for the theme than this rendition brings out. Cheap archers, tricky camels... all good ideas. But it needs something more. Let me try my hand at a version when I get a chance, and I'll post something for critique.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject:

Mark Stone wrote:
Hmm... I feel like this list has more potential for the theme than this rendition brings out. Cheap archers, tricky camels... all good ideas. But it needs something more. Let me try my hand at a version when I get a chance, and I'll post something for critique.


It does offer quite a bit more...in fact...if you take all the spearmen (36 elements) you have a very cheap wall, with the dense archers, that covers about 3/4 of the table.

On the remaining 1/4 you run a mix of camels and camel proof cavalry.

Most of the steppes armies are Cold, but some...including Uighur, are Dry and have the +1 terrain placement advantage too...
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject:

In the meta pre-game which is list concoction, if I assume everybody will bring an army which has a large, close-order foot, D class, B-armed foot component, why would I not then bring enough LI to counter that the entire game while I ram the rest of my army at whatever's available as a target?

I know, simplistic thinking.

scott

PS: I'd love to see a Tibetan list. I have one and might play the army in either scale (I have it in 15mm, can borrow it in 25mm).

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:10 pm    Post subject: not just D

The key to Uighur is that those D class blocks can have an element of C class and thus be promted to charge your 'whatever'...eventually catching it.

Also, huge blocks of MI archers can quite often blast enemy lights into oblivion unless you fully screen the ENTIRE MI unit with shooters...in which case they get prompted to charge you from 40p repeatedly as above.

Ok...I will now create a Tibetan list Wink.

Frank
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:23 pm    Post subject:

I knew there was something else about this list that was important. Tibetan Allies! So here's my take on it. Numbers after the troop line indicate number of stands.

Uighur Turk

CinC + Irr B EHC L,B,Sh (CP) 1
Nobles Irr B HC L,B (CP) 1

Sub + Irr B EHC L,B,Sh (CP) 1
Nobles Irr B HC L,B (CP) 1

Nobles Irr B EHC L,B,Sh/HC L,B (CP) 2

Nobles Irr B EHC L,B,Sh/HC L,B (CP) 2

Ally + Irr B SHC L,B,Sh 1
Tibetan Nobles Irr B EHC L,B 1

Tibetan Nobles Irr B SHC L,B,Sh 1
Tibetan Nobles Irr B EHC L,B 1

Tibetan Nobles Irr B SHC L,B,Sh 1
Tibetan Followers Irr C MC L,B 1

Camelry Irr C LCm L,B 2

Camelry Irr C LCm L,B 2

Horse Archers Irr C LC B (CP) 9

Horse Archers Irr C LC B (CP) 9

Horse Archers Irr C LC B (CP) 9

Tibetan skirmishers Irr C LC B 6

Spearmen Irr D (1 el C) MI LTS,Sh 6

Mtd Bowmen Irr D (1 el C) MI B,Sh/B 8

Bowmen Irr D MI B,Sh/B 8

Bowmen Irr D MI B,Sh/B 8

TOTAL POINTS 1,603
Scouting 122

Pretty simple tactics. You put the spear unit in the middle, and attack on both wings to either side of it.

One wing has 2 bow foot units, and the Tibetans. Also some LC to force march. The threat here is dense shooting and significant shock power. None of the mounted in the theme really want to stand in the face of something like this, and even the available foot will generally be unhappy about SHC.

The other wing has camels, camel-proof light cav, camel-proof lancers, and camel-mounted foot archers. Against an opponent whose cavalry wing does not have camel-proof cavalry, this can be pretty devestating. Disorder for the camels, and enough density of shooting to threaten second causes of disorder from shooting followed by opportunistic charges against whatever is not in good shape after shooting. Even against a camel-proof opponent, the foot archers and bigger LC units operating in 3 ranks should provide good chances of winning out through superior shooting and superior resistance to shooting. The mounted infantry helps them keep up with the cav in initial march moves, and creates an additional unit of camel-causing disorder

Large amounts of LI or enemy foot archers present a problem to the camel wing, but really present no threat to the SHC wing, so that weakness seems managable. Also, the bigger LC units on the camel wing will help absorb more shooting.

Rough terrain is a problem, and you'll just have to try not to fight the battle there. Should be do-able with a little luck and wise choices in terrain picks and placement.
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject:

That's a good list. 35E frontage even without gaps = almost 5' in 15mm. I like the combination of SHC with foot bowmen - one of the many examples where allies work perhaps better than the main list

May have trouble with opposing foot armies. Has enough LC to be unlikely to be overwhelmed easily. Would match up OK against elephants if not great. Will do well against 'traditional' theme cav opponents.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject:

I would agree that I like the list with the allies better.

Well done sir.

This is exactly what I wanted when I started this in the first place - so thank you all for your participation Very Happy

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject:

I agree with the choice of the Tibetan Ally...and that no more than 2 units of camels are needed.

Having a little experience using camels...note that they are slow...so using them with loose and open order cavalry slows down that whole wing.

Still, they do get 3 march moves...and starting 240p in (360 in 15s) will move them far enough forward to get to the enemy line on the first turn (as long as you don't have to redeploy them diagonally).

Frank
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:15 pm    Post subject:

I'm still mulling over the composition of Mark's Uighur list.

What about dropping the one Sub and using the points to have both 8E Bow units be mounted camel infantry, provide JLS and Sh to the front rank (3E) of the three Uighur LC units and do the same thing to the Tibetan LC unit while also adding 3E to it's unit size?

I'm guessing one factor in this is deployment. That single Sub could be a single-body command and deploys first.

BTW, anybody who would like to post another Theme list for consideration, I'm all eyes.

scott
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