Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[AUXILIAPAL]

Hello gentlemen

Yesterday we had a hardfought battle between Elamites and new kingdom Egyptians and had some problems uderstanding the chariot runners from the lists.
It is said that you can have up to 2 elements of LMI or LI chariot runners per chariot, archers or javelinmen... But how does it works, are they considered sub-units or are they integral with chariots .
Likewise howdoes they fought, or fires ad how does is goes for determining losses? My friend had a LMI archers element for each one of chariot and pretend they were mingled with the chariot element!
So he had 4 HCH and 4 LMI archers elements in a block:

HCH HCH
LMI B LMI B
HCH HCH
LMI B LMI B

So, how much elements are firing, or fighting in this formation and how to determine losses?

We had the same issue with Early Germans with their cavalry and their LI runners...

Thanks for a clear response!

Yours Robert

[RaphaelC]

Hello Robert,

The chariot runners can be handled in two ways.

They can either be a detachment of LMI/LI of two elements per chariot in the unit and thus combined with other such detachments to form a separate unit from the chariots, but governed by all the rules concerning detachments (covered in detail on P11 in the rules).

So in your example you would have 1 unit of 4 HCh and 1 unit (detachment) of 4 LMI/LI elements, which can be combined in a single body, but not intermingled as shown. Either the HCh would be entirely in front of the LMI/LI or vice versa.

Regarding firing, either LMI or LI can shoot as a second rank from behind the HCh. Each element firing uses its own factors.

As a target in a combined body you use the factors against whichever type is in the front rank.

Likewise, if in H-t-H combat as a combined body they will take 2CPF for containing Irregular foot, even if these are in the second rank.

For calculating CPF each element is counted as normal (chariot as 5 and the second rank of LMI as 3 or LI as 2).

If charged by mounted, and the LMI/LI can be legally contacted, they will also have to take a waver test.

The second way is to add two LI figures to each chariot base, as per Elephants P107 13.1.

I hope this helps, and if I have got anything wrong I am sure someone will be along to correct me.

Regards,

Raphael

[AUXILIAPAL]

Thanks Raphael!!!

[RaphaelC]

No Problem Robert, glad to be of assistance.

Just to clarify, I should have said that each CPF taken in H-t-H causes 2 fatigue because of the Irregular foot in the body.

The game sounds like an interesting match-up, how did it turn out?

I have a small Elamite army in 15mm, which despite all the bow fire does eventually get rolled over by its Sumerian opponents

Regards,

Raphael

[AUXILIAPAL]

I was with the Egyptian army and I had 4 corps (one enterely of light chariots). The last one was to flank march. Alas it came but it was to late... My opponent had also a flank march, that is a lone LC nit that was consequently driven out, his second LC unit was surprised in his flank by a shoot and then a charge from Lybian LI javelimen in embuscade on my extrem left and routed.
But it was all for the positive side because my infantry was outmatched by his and his heavy chariot units (with LMI archers runners!).
I must say to have had abyssmal dice scores in shooting and melee.
My Elamite opponents had such a luck that it was unbelievible!
But it was really interesting.

[Ed Kollmer]

Love these questions!
I try to figure out the answer and see
if I am correct.
Keep it up you guys!
Love it

[Historian]

Unless there are some special rules for the army list, I think there are some mistakes in the clarification above.
A chariot is a model, and as such cannot be shot over from the second rank. Also, I don't believe chariot runners can be placed on the base like elephant runners.
However it is correct that the chariots take double fatigue in combat if the runners are irregular. The runners also add figures when fighting from the second rank.

Another disadvantage, chariots with foot runners cannot roll up in pursuit. So no +80 paces when chasing skirmishers.

[Mark Stone]

LI who are chariot escorts can be on the base of chariots; I've run the Shang Chinese this way for years.

And chariots are indeed models, and thus cannot be shot over. There are no special rules that override this. However, if a unit of front rank chariots and back rank chariot escort detachment were in skirmish, then half the figures in the back rank would be eligible to shoot as skirmishers.

[RaphaelC]

Hello All,

Thanks for clarifying that.

In the Biblical Warrior amendment from 2008 it says in the Biblical Chariot Rules Point 5; LMI chariot runners shoot in the same circumstances as LI chariot runners per the 11th bullet of Warrior Rules 8.7.

The rule referred to says that 'LI on a common base with elephants, or behind a single rank of other mounted troops of their own unit, shoot as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body'. I interpreted the reference to mounted to refer, in this instance, to the chariots.

Otherwise, how can the LMI referred to 'shoot in the same circumstances' because they cannot be on the chariot base unless the LI option is used.

But they can do so if the body is in skirmish then?

Anyway Robert, very sorry if I have inadvertently confused the issue.

Regards,

Raphael

[AUXILIAPAL]

Thanks for the add on Raphaël!
It is very difficult to understand the problem of chariot runers indeed...
The LMI option is really a problem!

Robert

[RaphaelC]

Hello Robert,

To be honest, I think that I am guilty of over analyzing the rule.

As I now understand it, my original post was essentially correct, with the very important proviso that the only circumstance in which LMI can ever shoot from behind a single rank of HCh is if the entire body is in skirmish.

Once again, apologies if I inadvertently mislead you.

Regards,

Raphael