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Hohenstaufen List (Feudal Warrior #18) Input Requested
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Todd Kaeser
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject:

Kelly,

I agree that Berbers and Feudal Spanish are excellent options.

Love that Berber gets some quality foot and even a fair amount of Reg C LMI B,Sh that I love.

I'm sure there is a Berber list or two on the Forum is someone needs to search for it.

Todd

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Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
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Mark Stone
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:03 pm    Post subject:

For those that haven't followed all the nuances of the changing fate of moogs versus pikes it's probably worth laying it out.

1. The second bound problem: if Moogs by themselves charge pikemen and fail to rout them at contact, they're left in a tough spot second bound since they get neither the HTW factor nor the JLS plus on the second bound:
* Pikes are 8@3 -2 (disordere) = 8@1 =12.
* Moogs are 5@3 = 13 but if they are either tired or disordered (likely at least one is true) then they lose.

2. The way it used to be: Make sure your Moogs hit the pikes element for element and thus rout the pikes at contact.
* Pikes are 8@3 = 20
* Moogs are 5@5 +1 (JLS) +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) = 5@9 = 48.

3. How it changed with list rules for Macedonian pike: these pike no longer have their charge cancelled by impetuous foot. Thus instead of 8@3 they're now 12@4 = 36. Still losing, but no chance of routing, and very likely at least tiring the Moogs, putting the Moogs in the second bound problem.

Moral of the story: don't send the Moogs in alone against pikemen. If your opponent operates all pike units in single element columns, then don't fight the pikemen and take advantage instead of the fact that he's now holding a much narrower frontage than he otherwise would. An army like Sicilian Hohestafen, with a large number of quality skirmishing troops, should be particularly effective at this kind of enveloping attack.

If, instead, your opponent operates his pike units more than one element wide, then send in the Moogs, but with the right accompanying troops. In this regard, the SHC on the Hohenstafen list are more effective than the EHK (and arguably more effective than SHK on other lists). Let's look at a comparison:

1. EHK: Let's say the Moogs hit the very end element of a pike unit, and the EHK hit adjacent. the Moogs are still 5@9 = 48 vs. 8@3 = 20, so you're +28 on the melee so far.
* The EHK charge impetuously. They are 5@4 +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) -2 (facing pike) = 5@5 = 20. The pikes are 8@3 +1 (facing impetous mounted charge) = 8@4 = 24.
* The EHK charge nonimpetuously. They'll now be 5@3 = 13, and the pikes will be 8@3 = 20.


Either way you win the melee overall, forcing the pikes to recoil disordered with the Moogs following up, but your knights also recoil, tired and disordered and -- importantly -- rallying and unable participate next bound. Most like the Moogs start losing the next bound since the overlapping pike element that just drove off the knights now counts as fighting the Moogs.

2. SHC: Here the math works out very differentlly.
* SHC are 6@4 +1 (charging) -2 (facing pike) = 6@3 = 15. Pikes are 8@2=16.

Crucially, the SHC are not disordered, not even if the pikes roll up 1. So the SHC recoil, but are rallied at the end of approaches and thus eligible to charge in again. They'll be tired (-1) but no longer facing the -2 for facing steady pike and instead get a +2 for mounted versus disordered foot. Now on the second bound the pikes recoil disordered again, and start taking waver tests. And you are now following them up with a sustainable attack that will force a recoil disordered result every bound until the pikes shake and then rout.

So SHC work uniquely well in combination with Moogs, and there's only one list where you can get them both: Sicilian Hohenstafen. Food for thought.
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Kelly Wilkinson
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Raytown, MO

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:24 am    Post subject: Thanks for crunching those numbers!

Don't forget that most SHC can now have EHC in the second rank and will hit one factor harder than their front rank buddies being plus two instead of plus on when impetuous! Kind of makes Commagene a lot more interesting.


Kelly
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