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Andalusian - just for kicks (in proper forum)

 
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:31 pm    Post subject: Andalusian - just for kicks (in proper forum)

Ed the Rash LOVES El Cid - so I've thrown this as a thought to consider. What I love about conventions is seeing how people run different lists - it sparks new ideas. I try to do this on the forum every so often to keep the creative juices flowing.

I know that this is a "B" list at best, and we've moved away from this (for the most part) due to the nature of our high pressure tournament gaming at the NICT. People are at a distinct disadvantage taking a "B" list at the NICT and we don't have enough local tournaments to try out "fun" lists vs each other. So..... without further ado...

Andalusian
1600 points – 55 scouting

CinC 2E Ir B HC L,Sh + PA (160)
8E Andalusian Horse Archers Ir C LC B,Sh (121)
2E Andalusian Cav Reg C LC Jls,Sh (42)
2E Andalusian Cav Reg C LC Jls,Sh (42)
2E Andalusian Cav Reg C LC Jls,Sh (42)

4E Andalusian Spearmen Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,Sh (78
4E Andalusian Spearmen Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,Sh (78
4E Andalusian Spearmen Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,Sh (78
4E Andalusian Spearmen Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,Sh (78
4E Andalusian Spearmen Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,Sh (78
4E Andalusian Spearmen Reg D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,Sh (78

4E Negro Bowmen Reg C LMI B ½ Sh (66)
4E Negro Bowmen Reg C LMI B ½ Sh (66)

4E Andalusian Slingers Reg D LI S,Sh (34)
4E Andalusian Slingers Reg D LI S,Sh (34)
4E Andalusian Slingers Reg D LI S,Sh (34)
2E Andalusian Slingers Reg D LI S,Sh (22)

El Cid 2E Ir B HK L,Sh + P (135)
2E Hidalgos Ir B HK L,Sh (91)
2E Hidalgos Ir B HK L,Sh (91)
2E Hidalgos Ir B HK L,Sh (91)
6E Christian Skirmishers Ir C LI Jls,Sh (61)


17 units in the CinC's command and 5 in the Spanish for 22 units total - a nice high number. The Spear are all 4E units and have 1 element of C allowing them to be prompted without waver tests. They cover more table space allowing a 1 element gap between (for lancers to charge from) covering about 5.5 feet of table space in 25mm out of 8. They are cost efficient without the bowmen in the back that don't add much in the way of shooting. These are also tough units that only fear pike and some barbarians (you have K for that threat).

The LC is ok - there are 3 units of Reg LC Jls,Sh supported by an 8E LC B,Sh unit - these can work together to hold a flank fairly well. There is plenty of LI available and it is regular and flexible. The list doesn't have a lot of good terrain troops so I suggest having a plethora of fair. Slingers are tough to dislodge through shooting and are regular (move full and skirmish). There are also 2 decent units of regular bowmen to help fend off LC and LI on said flank. One of them can also be used on the LC flank to help sho away enemy LC.

The Spanish arm has the LI in it to make it 5 units (break point at 3). The LI will be late to the dance as one might have to start this command behind the main command. It could react to either traveling to the terrain side or be used to send to a flank to ward off/delay a flank march. Either way your Spanish command will be harder to break at 5 units vs. 4.

55 scouting is also a fair number hopefully allowing you to set up 2nd and find better match ups for your troops.

Thoughts,
Todd

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:09 pm    Post subject:

Put the spear in 6 element units. The improved maneuverability is valuable, and you cover plenty of frontage.

Can you get Almughuvars with the Christians? Something? Anything that can actually hurt your opponent?

Sorry, this army always strikes me as mediocre at several things, and strong at none.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:21 am    Post subject:

I agree Mark.

6's are a way to go and the typical way, but the 4E units do cover more space with the gaps. Berber has the Moogs, but some people might like the historical feel/flavor of El Cid and want to run the list. I'm trying to present the list as a way to run it that could work under "fun" or local tournaments and not the NICT.

Mark - are there any lists you like playing that are not A or A- lists?

Todd

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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:45 am    Post subject:

The one plus of the army that both of you have missed is
"THE CID"
He rockets the army to the top of the lists.
Here is my test of choosing a list:
A) Some historic Hero
B) Not an "A" list
C) Has a good story line
D) Gives me an excuse for losing Very Happy

Ed the Rash
PS Will use this list next time.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:51 am    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
I agree Mark.

Mark - are there any lists you like playing that are not A or A- lists?

Todd


Oh sure, I have a bunch of such lists, and have the figures for them, though some just in 15mm:
* 1st Crusade. These guys won 7 consecutive battles, none of which they really should have won. Total lunatics and badasses.
* Later Crusader. What's not to like about Richard the Lionheart, Phillip of France, and Frederick Barbarossa campaigning together?
* Post Mongol Russian. Dmitri Donskoi earns the first real victory against the Mongols for the emerging Grand Duchy of Moscow.
* Sub Roman British. The historical army of King Arthur; 'nough said.
* Grenadine. Not a strong historical pull for me, but I like the visual spectacle of Islamic knights.

On a side note: this is one of the things I miss about 15mm. It's relatively easy to put together an army just for the heck of it, and so 15mm enables a much greater indulgence in flights of fancy. 25mm is a serious commitment. You'd better be picking a solid army and be prepared to be in a long term relationship with it. In that vein, I have one army that has been a huge investment of time and money that I continue to trot out at tournaments, and which no one else would remotely consider an A or A- list: Shang Chinese. Man, I love that army.

By the way, I'd take any of the armies I've mentioned here against Andalusian and feel that I had the upper hand Yes, Andalusian is that mediocre.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject:

I do agree that with 25mm being predominant that "fun" armies have just about disappeared - which is why Abyssinian is doing so poorly.

I was getting concerned about you Mark as any list I tend to throw up here for kicks and giggles gets the "it sucks, you'll lose vs A,B,C, why would anyone play this army?" At least I know that you'll play at least 4 armies with detriments and be okay with it.

Too bad we are 3000 miles away or I would accept the challenge of Andalusian vs. all those armies Wink

Grenadine is supposedly much better after the new errata - haven't looked just yet.

My 15's are getting a new run at the table as I'm playing mock battles in the basement and keeping the enjoyment of Warrior as much as I can. Current battle is Ayyubid vs. Lt. Crusader in 1600 points.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject: Granadine

Granadine is now a playable list, about the strength of a Sicilian Hohenstaufen, which it resembles...with very solid flexibility.

I bet we'll see 1 or 2 folks running it soon...

Frank
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject:

I'd go so far as to say that Grenadine is now the best list on which Almughuvars make an appearance.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject:

I'd love to see a list up here from either Frank or Mark on Granadine or even the new Teuts.

Todd

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:59 pm    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
I'd love to see a list up here from either Frank or Mark on Granadine or even the new Teuts.

Todd


As requested:

Granadine
1 stand CinC w/Rg A HC L,Sh 154
1 stand Lancers Rg B HC L,Sh 33

1 stand Subgen w/Rg A HC L,Sh 84
1 stand Lancers Rg B HC L,Sh 33

2 stands Spanish Mercs Irr B SHK/EHK L,Sh 124

2 stands Spanish Mercs Irr B SHK/EHK L,Sh 124

2 stands Spanish Mercs Irr B SHK/EHK L,Sh 124

2 stands Jinetes Rg B LC JLS,Sh 46

2 stands Jinetes Rg B LC JLS,Sh 46

2 stands Jinetes Rg B LC JLS,Sh 46

6 stands Mtd Xbow Rg C LC CB 82

6 stands Mtd Xbow Rg C LC CB 82

4 stands Merc Bowmen Rg C LMI B,Sh/B 66

4 stands Merc Bowmen Rg C LMI B,Sh/B 66

4 stands Merc Bowmen Rg C LMI B,Sh/B 66

4 stands Merc Bowmen Rg C LMI B,Sh/B 66

6 stands Almughuvars Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS 106

2 stands Almughuvars Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS 52

2 stands Almughuvars Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS 52

6 stands Peasants Rg D LI CB 34

6 stands Peasants Rg D LI CB 34

2 stands Militia Rg C LI JLS,Sh 26

4 stands Slinggers Irr C LI S,Sh 49

4 stands Slinggers Irr C LI S,Sh 49

TOTAL 1,595
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:27 pm    Post subject: grenadine

Nice list - I still like Berber but it will not see battle soon - and the Spanish I think are stronger SHK/EHK plus Mugs is a good combination
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:38 pm    Post subject: similar

My Granadine would be similar enough to Mark's not to post here...but you did ask for Teutonic.

Problem for me with Later Teutonic is that the knights are all SHK, no EHK...so dismounting is far less valuable. In exchange you can get regular Prussian/Livonian LMI B,Sh (with some axes or javelins if you want).

Still, let's look at Early Teutonic (I also hate mandatory regular generals, so expensive).

CinC PA 2E Reg A SHK/EHK L,Sh 226 (ouch)
Sub similar 156 (ouch also)
2E Reg B HC L,Sh 76
3x 2E Irr A/B SHK/EHK L,Sh 381
2x 2E Reg A SHK/EHK L,Sh 254
2x 6E Irr D(1 C) LC JLS,B,Sh/B 162
4x 9E Irr D(1 C) LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh(2)/JLS,Sh(2)/JLS(5) 292
8E Irr D LI B 41
(1588)
This is only 15 units...and you need to get the Prussian foot to 'do something' rather than just die, so they'll ned the army standard advancing and proper support.

Early Teutonic is a bit 'thin' on troops you want.
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