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Chariot runners

 
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Murray Evans
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:44 am    Post subject: Chariot runners

There have been several posts about chariots lately, which has me thinking about chariot runners.

As people would know, in the Chinese context, these are generally LMI with either B or JLS which can be detachments to the chariots. They are generally irregular in the early Chinese lists, and regular in the later lists.

An earlier post confirmed the clarification to 6.163K (page 44):
"In the case of mixed units and canceled charges, what matters is what troop type is in the front rank of each unit in question"

Therefore, the above described Chariot unit with detachment of regular foot DOES NOT have its charge cancelled if its target is also charged by a separate mounted or impetuous body (as long as the reg foot are NOT in the front rank.)

I have a few other questions to clarify the operation of these mixed units.

Assume we have 2 stands of HCh and 2 stands of LMI JLS as a joined detachment in the rear rank.

1. When does this body move, as infantry or mounted?

2. How are shooting or combat cpf's allocated - i.e. the HCh are the only ones in contact with enemy, so do they receive all of the cpf's?

Muz
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Chariot runners

Murray Evans wrote:

I have a few other questions to clarify the operation of these mixed units.

Assume we have 2 stands of HCh and 2 stands of LMI JLS as a joined detachment in the rear rank.

1. When does this body move, as infantry or mounted?

2. How are shooting or combat cpf's allocated - i.e. the HCh are the only ones in contact with enemy, so do they receive all of the cpf's?

Muz


There's nothing in these questions that's unique to chariots, or to detachments. The same rules apply to a detachment of foot with elephants, to foot on the same base as elephants, or to foot on the same base as chariots.

The key is to remember that when a detachment is attached, the whole thing is one body. So it moves in infantry approaches, because it contains foot. And you add up the chariots plus the detachment in determining size of body for CPF calculation. Note that if the associated foot are irregular, then any hand to hand CPF get doubled since the body contains irregular foot.

Again, this isn't any different from how an irregular elephant with irregular LI mounted on the base behaves.


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Murray Evans
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Chariot runners

Thanks Mark

So just to further clarify - where the body takes 2cpf's, does each part of the body record 2 cpf's - I am thinking of what happens when the detachment detaches at some later bound.

Also, with the list rule that some Chinese chariots receive, being HTH opponents suffer a -1 tactical factor adjustment where crew has 2HCT - is this is addition to the usual -1 tactical factor for facing 2HCT (ie an opponent takes -2)

Muz
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Chariot runners

Murray Evans wrote:
Thanks Mark

So just to further clarify - where the body takes 2cpf's, does each part of the body record 2 cpf's - I am thinking of what happens when the detachment detaches at some later bound.

Also, with the list rule that some Chinese chariots receive, being HTH opponents suffer a -1 tactical factor adjustment where crew has 2HCT - is this is addition to the usual -1 tactical factor for facing 2HCT (ie an opponent takes -2)

Muz


A detachment that later detaches carries with it whatever CPF it had accumulated up to that point, and then acrues further CPF independently. In theory you can get some wierd combinations with parent and detachment separating and then joining over and over. It's all pretty well explained in the detachment rules, though.

Jon can weigh in if I've mischaracterized anything. And Jon should *definitely* weigh in on the second point. I would have assumed that the list rule was to be read as "unlike normal 2HCT where only HTW avoids a -1, these chariot 2HCT are such that only LI avoids a -1. " In other words, even HTW still faces a -1 against chinese chariots with 2HCT, but LI do not face that minus, and this is in place of, not in addition to the regular 2HCT minus.

Jon?


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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject:

[[Assume we have 2 stands of HCh and 2 stands of LMI JLS as a joined detachment in the rear rank.

1. When does this body move, as infantry or mounted? ]]

Foot with respect to approach precedence.

[[2. How are shooting or combat cpf's allocated - i.e. the HCh are the only ones in contact with enemy, so do they receive all of the cpf's? ]]

No. A combined body is part of CPF calculations as a whole.

[[So just to further clarify - where the body takes 2cpf's, does each part of the body record 2 cpf's - I am thinking of what happens when the detachment detaches at some later bound. ]]

You don't record cpf, you record Fatigue Points.
The end of 5.31 says:

"FP for detachments and their parent bodies must be
tracked separately (only) while the detachment is separate. If
a detachment joins its parent, the combined unit
immediately gains the higher of the two FP totals. While
combined, the detachment and parent total their figures for
the casualty per figure (CPF) calculations in 10.0 (i.e. act as
a single body). If a detachment separates from its parent,
both bodies have the FP total possessed by the combined
unit at the moment of separation. A body may NEVER
have multiple FP totals."

[[Also, with the list rule that some Chinese chariots receive, being HTH opponents suffer a -1 tactical factor adjustment where crew has 2HCT - is this is addition to the usual -1 tactical factor for facing 2HCT (ie an opponent takes -2) ]]

I am double checking this answer and will be with you shortly.

Mark, please, please, please do not answer rules questions on the rules topic. Thanks.

Jon

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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Detachments

Not a big deal for me, however - I was shown something else a couple of years back - hopefully someone else will post that - as I cannot find it - Historian?
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Attention Scott!

In the context, especially, of massed chariots coming up at Historicon, I want to get a definitive answer on this from Scott (basically, confirm that he agrees with the ruling here, which I think is the agreed consensus of players also):

That is: is it correct that a body containing both mounted and foot troops moves as foot with regard to approach phases?

I have heard it ruled otherwise, most recently (second-hand) at CW this year, and really really want to avoid having the argument during a game Smile.

Thanks all.
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject:

I posted about this in at least two other recent threads.

I made a mistake at Cold Wars.

Quote:
is it correct that a body containing both mounted and foot troops moves as foot with regard to approach phases?


Yes.

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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:53 am    Post subject:

Thanks.
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derekcus
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject: Foot on Base

How far do Regular light chariots with escorts on the base move?
120 or 160 paces?

Derek
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:45 am    Post subject:

C'mon, Derek Smile. 120, but nice try.. Razz
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derekcus
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:26 am    Post subject: Ewan

Can't they hang on the side or something?
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject:

Of course they can hang on the side. Which slows the chariots down to 120p.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject:

Exactly...not ideal to put LI on the base of LCh.
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