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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject: Bantu infantry rule and halting when shot

The list rule text is:

2. Loose order Bantu Infantry may always evade if charged, regardless of formation.

Some people were able to shoot the glorious Zulu infantry for 2 CPF and we were playing it as they had to stand in place if shot to a halt, neither getting to countercharge nor evade. I'm happy with the way we played it, but the text of the list rule could be read as overriding the normal shot for two, stand in place for two bounds and no countercharging.

No evading either for Zulu or similar troops is the right way to play this?
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject:

I'll let Bill opine on this vis a vis the Zulus but I would not consider it overriding the regular rules. But that's my knee jerk reaction.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:26 am    Post subject:

This case can come up even without the Zulu list rules. Consider a regular loose order foot unit in skirmish that is charged and evades. Next bound it fails to counter into skirmish (or chooses not to), and takes 2 CPF in prep, from which it opts to halt. Then it's charged again.

Can it evade, since it evaded last bound?

Or must it take the charge at the halt, since evading would be voluntary?

I'm not actually looking for Scott to answer this in the abstract. The philosophy of "rule at the table where there is context" has served well over the years. But if Scott wanted to put some forethought into this before it comes up at the table, that would be okay too.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject:

Mark Stone wrote:
This case can come up even without the Zulu list rules. Consider a regular loose order foot unit in skirmish that is charged and evades. Next bound it fails to counter into skirmish (or chooses not to), and takes 2 CPF in prep, from which it opts to halt. Then it's charged again.

Can it evade, since it evaded last bound?

Or must it take the charge at the halt, since evading would be voluntary?

I'm not actually looking for Scott to answer this in the abstract. The philosophy of "rule at the table where there is context" has served well over the years. But if Scott wanted to put some forethought into this before it comes up at the table, that would be okay too.


As written...in the Zulu case the special list rule does not override the no voluntary movement stand halted rule, as it has no text doing so...thus the Zulus cannot evade. Their text 'may always evade' is to signify that they are able to choose the voluntary 'evade' option when charged, regardless of formation. Bill could clarify this if he wished, but I wouldn't want him to...given that 'hard' nature of the 11.1 statement on no voluntary movement.

For Mark, the loose order foot who got shot for 2 CPF and chose halt may not evade either, as they cannot engage in a voluntary movement, which an evade is in their case.
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject:

Frank correctly and succinctly answered the questions. Cool
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject:

Well now that we are talking about gazillion years ago.
And people are getting things off their chests.
Back in 1987, there was a ruling that REALLY HAS BOTHERED ME all these number of years.
This guy, who I was playing started to put down all these roads, it looked like down town Boston. I could not put any of my terrain down. I called the ump
who happened to be Mr. Holder. I showed him the board. He looked at it and said, "Yeah, he can do it but I hate these, @#$$%%%##@$#$ players who that do that." (there were words that my virgin ears had not heard before).
I lost the game, but I am wondering if there is a statute of limitations and I can appeal the game and get the win..... Cool Very Happy Smile Rolling Eyes Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz
If I can appeal, I know a good lawyer........
BillL are you busy.....
EdK
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:47 am    Post subject:

Ed Kollmer wrote:
Well now that we are talking about gazillion years ago.
And people are getting things off their chests.
Back in 1987, there was a ruling that REALLY HAS BOTHERED ME all these number of years.
This guy, who I was playing started to put down all these roads, it looked like down town Boston. I could not put any of my terrain down. I called the ump
who happened to be Mr. Holder. I showed him the board. He looked at it and said, "Yeah, he can do it but I hate these, @#$$%%%##@$#$ players who that do that." (there were words that my virgin ears had not heard before).
I lost the game, but I am wondering if there is a statute of limitations and I can appeal the game and get the win..... Cool Very Happy Smile Rolling Eyes Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz
If I can appeal, I know a good lawyer........
BillL are you busy.....
EdK


Um, that was me. I was the pioneer of many marginal terrain placement tactics, and using roads to create clear terrain was my specialty. It's really just simple math. You get more square millimeters of open space out of a road than you do from placing an open space.

Phil Barker was always befuddled by these kinds of manipulations. Four Horsemen were much quicker to recognize a problem and adjust rules to address it. Which I think is actually a good thing. A terrific thing, in fact. So the road rules have changed a couple of times since the original WRG7.

I can still accomplish about 90% of the same thing with a combination of carefully placed road and open space, but now we have pre-set terrain so it doesn't matter. And pre-set terrain is a better system, without question.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject:

Sorry Mark!
But it wasn't you. The player in question doesn't play anymore.
After that I alway was looking for him and hoped I won't have to play against him.
Against you!, I would love to play. I still have your dissertation on Use of Light Troops.
Thanks
Ek
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: I did it too

I also created the parking lot a few times...erasing a woods here, a brush there...but I don't think it was against you.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject:

Again it was not you, Frank.
Like I said, the fellow doesn't play anymore, from what I know.
Ek
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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:10 am    Post subject: Pre set terrain

Since imitation is the sincerest flattery, I will just note that the frequent games at Steve's Gym have drifted towards preset terrain too trying to imitate the way Scot tosses it around.
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject:

Frank was tossing around some ideas a while back about a preset terrain generating system. I can't remember if he emailed me something. I can't find it if he did. Something like that might help.

Or you could just do what I do and imagine yourself sneezing and a bunch of terrain pieces spew out and land on the table. That's about the amount of thought I put into the process.

scott

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject:

scott holder wrote:
Frank was tossing around some ideas a while back about a preset terrain generating system. I can't remember if he emailed me something. I can't find it if he did. Something like that might help.

Or you could just do what I do and imagine yourself sneezing and a bunch of terrain pieces spew out and land on the table. That's about the amount of thought I put into the process.

scott

My 'system' is listed in the following post:
http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17619&highlight=terrain
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Matt Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject:

Please do call me out as biased.... as I very well may be, I'd argue that the Zulu list rule does in fact override the rules. All list rules are "rule breakers " in nature. Choosing to halt is your reaction to receiving 2 CPF from shooting, regardless of whether evading is considered voluntary or not, the list rule here states "may always evade if charged, regardless of formation" ....period. I'm not a lawyer by any means, but my new job has taught me some law and the wordage is what matters, not the intent.
So if Zulu (Bantu) foot is charged, it may evade. There are no stipulations where/when it applies.
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Matt Kollmer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject:

As a side note, I do vastly prefer preset terrain. I like its effect on list creation and gameplay. And takes a somewhat unnecessary and sometimes cumbersome step out of the pregame.... where it did create another layer of stategy in some regards -which is lost now- I think the benefits outweigh the negatives..... yes, somehow I've become so much more opinionated..... hmmm
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