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2017 NICT Lists
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Jevon Garrett Elamite

Frank Gilson wrote:
Jevon Garrett's Elamites

1 CinC 2HCh 144
2 Sub Gen 2HCh 137
with detachment of 3E Irr B LMI JLS,Sh/JLS
3 Sub Gen 2HCh 137
with detachment of 3E Irr B LMI JLS,Sh/JLS
4 3E 4hHCh "Irr B" 3 w/Bow + 2 "Irr. B" LI B on base 157
5 3E 4hHCh "Irr B" 3 w/Bow + 2 "Irr. B" LI B on base 157
6 3E 4hHCh "Irr B" 3 w/Bow + 2 "Irr. B" LI B on base 157
7 4E "Reg C" LI JLS, Sh 42
8 4E "Reg D" LI S, Sh 34
9 4E "Reg D" LI S, Sh 34
10 4E Reg D LI B 26
11 6E "Irr. B" 2hLCh [3E JLS, B, 3E B] 124
12 12E "Irr. C" MI B 121
13 4E "Reg. B" LMI [2E JLS, B, Sh, 2E JLS, B] 98
14 4E "Reg. B" LMI [2E JLS, B, Sh, 2E JLS, B] 98
15 9 E "Irr. B" LC JLS, B 133


The latest Biblical Warrior chariot rules have completely changed this list, putting it -- in my opinion -- in the top tier. The core of the army, as Jevon has it configured, is the three units of 3 heavy chariots each with bow-armed LI on the base. These units put out 8 figures' shooting on an element's frontage, for a total of 72 figures worth of dense shooting. In addition, when facing return fire they are equivalent to shielded EHC and count as 7 figures per model, making them relatively impervious to enemy missile fire.

While chariots don't beat a lot of shock troops outright, the math changes considerably when the opposing shock troop is tired and/or disordered. And heavy chariots really don't fear any mounted -- not SHK, nor SHC, and certainly not shooting vulnerable HC. So the simple game plan here is to roll up with the heavy chariots and start blasting away. Any shooting roll that produces a tired or disordered opponent is likely to create an opportunity to charge with the chariots.

There are a few challenges in running this army:
* An impetuous heavy chariot charge is an immediate 4 CPF, meaning these guys support shoot tired on a good day. Generally, you have to use chariot charges sparingly because they use up so much of your shooting fatigue.
* There are no good mounted moving 160p on this army, which makes it difficult to deal with armies like Zulu or Tepanec. Jevon has the one big light chariot unit, but with only 2 horses it can't really fight much of anything, and may not be worth the points. Note it has the odd virtue that enemy LC and LI cannot charge it frontally when it's steady.
* There's a decent amount of quality LI here, and some solid LMI, but because of the chariots this army is highly constrained to fighting in the open. On terrain dense tables that can be a problem.
* Chariot armies take a lot of practice! Big chariot units take up a lot of space, and can feel really awkward to manuever if you aren't used to them. Traffic control problems are significant.

There are a few purchase choices on Jevon's list I'd question. The big light chariot unit, as I mentioned. Also the 9 stand LC unit. Having some LC is good, but adding another big, awkardly sized unit in an army already full of them is questionable. Finally, the HCh can get LMI detachments with JLS that can fight from behind the chariots. This eliminates their ability to skirmish, but adds significant straight ahead shock power. Having one such unit is probably a good idea.

If Jevon sticks with this army he'll do better over time. It's a solid army, but hard to learn. Generally I expect we'll regularly see Elamite at Historicon. It is now the beset army in Biblical Warrior, and clearly competitive in open tournament play.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject:

I agree with Mark's assessment of the Anglo-Irish. Although as a "Meso" player I do enjoy the occasional LMI/LHI unit...

I think it gives them greater mobility and allows for shooting matches being in skirmish. Having the stakes essentially gives them the close foot option of not wavering and allows for flexibility in terrain as well.

Phil certainly loves the list and has been playing around with different configurations for year - I commend that love as I too share it with Tepanec and my KoSJ armies.

Todd

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"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:21 am    Post subject: Re: Scott McDonald Seleucid

Frank Gilson wrote:
Scott McDonald's Seleucids

1 CnC 2 Rg A/C EHC L 154
2 Sub 1 Rg A SHC/1 Rg C EHC L 122
3 Sub 2 Rg A S/EHC L 128
4 Sub 2 Rg A S/EHC L 128
5 2 Rg C LC JLS, SH 42
6 2 Rg C LC JLS, SH 42
7 2 Rg C LC JLS, SH 42
8 2 Rg C LC JLS, SH 42
9 4 Ir C LC B, JLS, 1/2 SH 73
10 4 Ir C LC B, JLS, 1/2 SH 73
11 4 Rg C LMI JLS, LTS, SH 90
12 4 Rg C LMI JLS, LTS, SH 90
13 12 Ir D LI JLS, 7xSH 63
14 2 Rg C LI B, 1xSH 24
15 2 Rg C LI B, 1xSH 24
16 4 Rg B 1xHI, 3xMI, P, SH 98
17 8 Rg C 2xHI, 6xMI, P, SH 154
18 2 Ir C El 1xJLS, 1xP, 1xB 115
19 HCh Syth Exp 24
20 HCh Syth Exp 24
21 HCh Syth Exp 24
22 HCh Syth Exp 24
1600


Scott takes a very unusual approach with Seleucids here, but I understand the intent.

This version maximizes light troops and scythed chariots, and then up-armors the cav all the way to SHC. So that's the shock attack: 2 units of SHC, and then 2 units of EHC because often 160p charge reach is what's required. These 4 units are to be set up by playing the light troops very aggressively, and interspersing the light troops with scythed chariots to really open the way for the light troops and then the cav.

A consequence is minimal pike and elephants.

So it's interesting. If I'm going to showcase SHC as shock troops this isn't the first army that comes to mind. I'd more likely go with Tang, Timurid, Sassanid, Nikephoran, or even Rich's Kushan. But it is true that nobody else gets the combination of both scythed chariots and SHC, so this is an attempt to capitalize on a truly unique aspect of the Seleucid list.

I think, though, this takes things too far in one direction. Scythed chariots are difficult to use effectively, and so much of this list is oriented around the chariots creating some opportunity. In many games that simply won't be the case, either because the terrain isn't favorable, or the chariots roll down, or an opponent is disciplined about defusing them. The result may not be a big loss, but it won't be a big win either. And this version of Seleucids strips too many points away from the other attack options on the Seleucid list, giving Scott little to fall back on if the chariots fizzle.

No, I think I prefer Robert's Seleucid list from an earlier Historicon, with a balance of elephants, pike, and a small mounted command with some scythed chariots to contend with. Not overwhelming in any one dimension, but enough of a "Swiss army knife" to offer multiple threats to any opponent.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Rick Parrish Midianite

Frank Gilson wrote:
Rick Parrish's Midianites

1 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
2 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
3 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
4 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
5 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
6 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
7 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
8 6E IC, MCm, 2 w/B 133
9 6E IC, LCm, B 73
10 1E IC/5E ID, LI, JLS, 1/2 Sh 45
11 1E IC/5E ID, LI, JLS, 1/2 Sh 45
12 1E IC/5E ID, LI, JLS, 1/2 Sh 45
13 4E ID LI, S, Sh 41
14 4E ID LI, S, Sh 41
15 10E ID, LI, S, 1/2 Sh 55
16 10E ID, LI, B 45
17 8E ID, LI, B 41
18 1E IC, Gen + 2 MCm, B 106
1601


Arguably the most one dimensional army in Warrior. The camels are vulnerable to anything that can get to grips with them in hand to hand, and also vulnerable to shooting. For most of the armies in this year's NICT, that shouldn't be a problem. A few examples:

Kushan - SHC aren't that vulnerable to bowfire, even of this density. Oh, and the Kushan also have camels of their own and camel-proof cav.

Zulu - Always a -2 when shot at, can always evade, so not too vulnerable to Midianite, especially if you put units in column to increase density. Will shoot camels to pieces with JLS once they get close enough.

Tepanec - Similar to Zulu. Have to actually be in skirmish, but have better shooting range.

Shang or Elamite - Skirmishing heavy chariots need not worry about the camels, and will shoot the camels to pieces even from 160p.

You get the idea. With today mix of armies favoring dense missile fire, and also adjusting for the ability to absorb dense missile fire, Midianite is just not a viable army -- if it ever was.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: All done?

Hope you all enjoyed this Wink...I find it quite useful!

Thanks, Mark, Ewan, Todd...and anyone else who has questions or whatnot here.
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject:

I do, still, plan to comment at more length. Many thanks and kudos to both you & Mark, especially, thus far.
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