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Rajput, Lodi or Delhi?
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:44 pm    Post subject:

Okay, here's a quick take on Vijaynagara Indian:

Unit Troop Type Elems
Vijayanagara Indian
1 CinC w/B,JLS w/Irr B El crew of 1 w/JLS,B 1
Elephants Irr B crew of 2 w/JLS,B 1

2 Sub w/B,JLS w/Irr B El crew of 1 w/JLS,B 1
Elephants Irr B crew of 2 w/JLS,B 1

3 Elephants Irr B crew of 2 w/JLS,B 2

4 Elephants Irr B crew of 2 w/JLS,B 2

5 Elephants Irr B crew of 2 w/JLS,B + Irr C LI B 2

6 Elephants Irr B crew of 2 w/JLS,B + Irr C LI B 2

7 Hindu Cav (EP) Reg C EHC L,Sh 2

8 Moslem Mercs (EP) Irr B HC L,B,Sh 2

9 Nayak Cav Irr D (1 C) LC JLS,B,Sh 4

10 Nayak Cav Irr D (1 C) LC JLS,B,Sh 4

11 Hindu Swordsmen Reg C LMI JLS,Sh 4

12 Hindu Spearmen Reg C LHI/LMI JLS,Sh 4

13 Hindu Spearmen Reg C LHI/LMI JLS,Sh 4

14 Hindu Archers Reg C LI B 4

15 Hindu Archers Reg C LI B 4

15 Hindu Archers Reg C LI B 4

16 Nayak Infantry Irr D LMI JLS,Sh 6

17 Nayak Archers Irr D LI B 7

Points 1,597

Units 17
Scouting 38

This list is all about getting your elephants into advantageous combats. This takes enough light troops for broad frontage coverage, and assumes that the combination of two LMI JLS,Sh units (one Irr D, one Reg C) can hold frontage in some terrain somewhere.

The cavalry either stiffens the LI to discourage charges by LC, or drives off LI that attempt to pin the elephants. The Hindu spear are up-armored to LHI in the front on the assumption that they'll want to charge together with the elephants in combined arms operations.

Two elephant units have LI on the base. While this lowers the unit morale to Irr C, and forces these units to move in infantry approaches, you still have three other elephant units and these units have their uses. With effectively 5 bow shooting and 2 JLS crew fighting per model, they make excellent anti-elephant troops. They are also hefty enough, especially when operating in column, to throw into combat against some foot that are missile armed. This works particularly well when in a combined arms charge with the LHI.

A good skirmishing knight army like Wallachians could cause problems for this list, since the light troops here are not particularly tough. But with 10 elephants in 5 units you can afford to spread the elephants around broadly, making it that much more difficult for the aggressive light troops in an army like Wallachian to be effective. This is also another context in which having LI on the base of some elephants will help, limiting the ability of light troops alone to reach 2 CPF in prep shooting and that annoying "waver or halt" decision that elephants often face.

Overall I think this is a pretty solid list. Not better than Ghaznavid, but different. It covers more frontage than Ghaznavid, and offers better interoperation between the elephants and the cavalry.

While preferring to fight in the open, this is an army with enough quality terrain troops that it can comfortably deal with a terrain-heavy table. Not many elephant armies can say that.

Out of the mix of lists that Dan presents, this is the list I'd play.

But I'd still take Ming Chinese over this any day.
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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:59 pm    Post subject: Elephant model count?

If I'm reading this right, you have two units of generals with a bodyguard elephant and four units of two elephants each for a total of 12 elephant models. I don't have any list revisions noted for Oriental Warrior and this list, so did I miss a revision or are you over by two elephants?

Would regular LI detachments on two of the elephant units be more cost effective than the LI on the base? RC LI B would be 6 each plus 5 for the detachment for 17 total while IC LI on the base is ten each for 20.

You went with the Hindu spearmen as LHI/LMI JLS Sh, what is your thought on fielding them as RC HI/MI LTS Sh?
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant model count?

jamiepwhite wrote:
If I'm reading this right, you have two units of generals with a bodyguard elephant and four units of two elephants each for a total of 12 elephant models. I don't have any list revisions noted for Oriental Warrior and this list, so did I miss a revision or are you over by two elephants?

Would regular LI detachments on two of the elephant units be more cost effective than the LI on the base? RC LI B would be 6 each plus 5 for the detachment for 17 total while IC LI on the base is ten each for 20.

You went with the Hindu spearmen as LHI/LMI JLS Sh, what is your thought on fielding them as RC HI/MI LTS Sh?


You're right on the elephant miscount. I'm over by two.

The LI detachments are not worth the points saved. They lead to too many situations that imperil the elephants -- if you get hit in the flank, or become disordered, suddenly your opponent is fighting LI instead of elephants. And they contribute nothing to support shooting.

There is some value to close order with LTS. You get more guys fighting, albeit at a lower factor. You don't have to waver if charged by mounted. But you're slower. I'm just not a big fan of close order foot unless it has a missile weapon. Too hard to actually get them into the fight. By contrast, having JLS is important in many situations, including against other elephants. You have the elephants to keep mounted away. As loose order, you move at the same speed as the elephants, and you can go into terrain. So on balance the loose order foot is just the better choice on this particular list.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject:

Nice to see a discussion here Smile

I agree with Dan that it is about playing style. I have run Seleucid a few times (as one of the "best" armies and really struggled with it, while running Hellenistic Greek was more enjoyable but no one would pick it as better.

Each Indian list comes with its own flavor and feel. I have seen various Indian armies run - Mountain Indian has been at least a middle of the pack NICT run here and there from either Jevon G. or Mark C.

I think there is something to be said for Elephant proof cavalry. Running them in Christian Nubian makes the army so much more playable. But we are not talking about other Elephant armies are we???

Wink

Khmer is more my style with the regular foot that fights and shoots and had 12 elephants back in the day.

I like the way these armies run, but I agree with Dan that you have to choose a point (screen as best you can the rest) and drive home the elephants. Irreg B helps with this as if you get shot for 2 you waiver and bring in the beasts and try to roll hot. There have been some big swings of the dice running elephants and I think they should be thrown into things more than held with kid gloves. When they get rolling they can sweep whole areas.

Having bow makes the need for more generals - need the prompts to charge missile troops. I have never felt that elephants as missile troops is effective - it seems you will dilly-dally with them for shooting when their best purpose is to charge home. Although having bow vs. enemy cavalry is nice when you get within 80p and disorder and then shoot for 3cpf and cause a waiver.

it is also refreshing to see more variety out there for armies rather than the usual mix of "A" armies. Pick an army you love to play with, learn its weaknesses and strengths, and go for it.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Nice to see a discussion here Smile

I agree with Dan that it is about playing style. I have run Seleucid a few times (as one of the "best" armies and really struggled with it, while running Hellenistic Greek was more enjoyable but no one would pick it as better.

Each Indian list comes with its own flavor and feel. I have seen various Indian armies run - Mountain Indian has been at least a middle of the pack NICT run here and there from either Jevon G. or Mark C.

I think there is something to be said for Elephant proof cavalry. Running them in Christian Nubian makes the army so much more playable. But we are not talking about other Elephant armies are we???

Wink

Khmer is more my style with the regular foot that fights and shoots and had 12 elephants back in the day.

I like the way these armies run, but I agree with Dan that you have to choose a point (screen as best you can the rest) and drive home the elephants. Irreg B helps with this as if you get shot for 2 you waiver and bring in the beasts and try to roll hot. There have been some big swings of the dice running elephants and I think they should be thrown into things more than held with kid gloves. When they get rolling they can sweep whole areas.

Having bow makes the need for more generals - need the prompts to charge missile troops. I have never felt that elephants as missile troops is effective - it seems you will dilly-dally with them for shooting when their best purpose is to charge home. Although having bow vs. enemy cavalry is nice when you get within 80p and disorder and then shoot for 3cpf and cause a waiver.

it is also refreshing to see more variety out there for armies rather than the usual mix of "A" armies. Pick an army you love to play with, learn its weaknesses and strengths, and go for it.

Todd


I actually do favor using detachments of Reg C LI B on the Vijayanagara list...but Mark is correct to highlight the challenges. Still, there are 'tricks' you can do when you have such detachments AND you can have the detachment evade back, nothing says you have to attach it OR you can have it attached in safe circumstances...detaching when they become unsafe.

It becomes a matter of experience using them...which I recommend getting in before showing up at an event.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject:

And Khmer is another list to consider alongside these Indian lists...it lacking, however, lancers and 'sufficient' LC, but with the detachment trick rendering some of its elephants invulnerable to shooting.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Elephants

So, in considering elephant army 'style' we have:
Seleucid/Lysimachid : Irr C pike elephants with pikemen and other Macedonian stuff

Khmer : Irr B elephants with reg loose foot and some other support troops, but it's almost entirely about the elephants here with creative use of detachments

Later Indian : Irr B elephants with elephant proof lancers and LC and some dubious support troops
- Ghaznavid falls into this 'style', but lacks elephant proofing or LI for the base, yet is still 'better' than the Indian lists

Early Indian : Irr B elephants and elephant proof chariots, otherwise dubious support troops (particularly for terrain)

We see mostly Seluecid and Ghaznavid, with some Khmer...as those are the strongest lists.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject:

I'm routing for the Khmer.....
Go Team.......
Give me a "K",
Give me a "H"
Give me a "M"
Give me an "E"
Give me a "R"
KHMER Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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