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Arcrave
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:56 am    Post subject: Defensive Lists

I was wondering if anyone had a good suggestions on lists that excel on the defense. I am still irresolute on choosing an army to build and figured that a defensive list would interesting. Also, I am horrible at being aggressive in few games I have played, so watching others destroy my defenses will likely show me how to improve my offense.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: Defensive Lists

Arcrave wrote:
I was wondering if anyone had a good suggestions on lists that excel on the defense. I am still irresolute on choosing an army to build and figured that a defensive list would interesting. Also, I am horrible at being aggressive in few games I have played, so watching others destroy my defenses will likely show me how to improve my offense.


10 Independent States.

Koryo Korean.

Early Burgundian.

These all have something in common, and are strong defensive, counter-punching armies.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject:

The various MesoAmerican armies are similar, but generally without mounted response...they set up a defense and rely on the sling and arrows of outrageous fortune to weaken their opponents...at which point they exploit whatever +2 or +3 shooting die rolls they have made.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject:

Given that Dick Hurchanik elevated Japanese defensive lists to an art form, I'd think that would also be an option.

In terms of more "bang for your buck" when looking at such list development longer term, Early Burgundian is a great choice. Why? Once you decide to start playing an offensive, move/pin game, it packs a lot of punch when used that way.

Also too, offensive style doesn't have to be that complicated. Sure, the resident power gamers will tell you about why such-and-such a list works best but in almost every instance, those are lists with how I like to describe em as "lots of moving parts". Thus, it's easy in Warrior to get hopelessly lost trying to run one.

Time to go off on a tangent for a moment. Warrior has this reputation of being an uber-hard game. Note I didn't say "uber hard game to...". I've always felt that characterization was unfair. Once you learn the basics, the charts aren't that difficult and even if you're like me and can't memorize the Casualty chart, it's not that hard to consult it.

What's "hard" is mastering the game. Again, learning it ain't all that hard, especially if you don't get too hung up on how flank charges work or get into "how can I ignore and blatantly break the gap rules until I need to prevent my opponent from doing something I don't want them to do?"

That "mastering the game" typically revolves around playing armies offensively that have a lot of moving parts.

It doesn't have to be that way. Instead, take an army with perhaps 3 moving parts. Actually, that's how I run Thracians at 1200 pts, hell, it only has two moving parts: the 12E LMI infantry mobs and the HC. When I ran E Burgundian the last time, same approach, a lot of identical infantry units and paired mounted units.

And when I say "lots of moving parts" I don't mean the actual unit count, I'm referring to the tactical components of each list. By playing with lists with 2-3 "moving parts", you start to learn how everything works together and then looking at more complicated, offensive lists, isn't so daunting.

scott

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Defensive lists

I think Scotts anser was spot on - when I started playing I ran Seluicid and ran it defensively - if there is a period you love (really important in my mind), there are a bunch of us who can give you advice on how to run or find a list in period that will allow you to be defensive and counterpunch with limited "moving parts"
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject:

I've attached my latest Burgundian Ordonnance List with the hope that the "pros" can give me suggestions. As a newbie myself, I'm learning fast that playing defensive is best. All my aggression is quickly "sliced and diced" by those that understand the rules regarding gaps, breakthroughs, counter-charges, etc..

I plan to defend 60% of the table with stakes and/or ditched palisades and hope I can counter-punch with SHK or pike. Skirmishing LB is a last desperate option it usually gets my flanks exposed and then wham, I'm broken.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Burgundian List

Burgundian Ordonnance (List 40)

2E CinC Reg A SHK L 168
2E Household Longbowmen Reg B LHI 2HCW, LB, Stks 68
2E Household Longbowmen Reg B LHI 2HCW, LB, Stks 68
2E Gendarmes/Coustilliers Reg B SHK L, HC L 91
2E Gendarmes/Coustilliers Reg B SHK L, HC L 91
2E Gendarmes/Coustilliers Reg B SHK L, HC L 91
4E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg B LHI LB 2HCW, Stks 118
4E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg B LHI LB 2HCW, Stks 118
4E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg B LHI LB 2HCW, Stks 118
4E Ordonnance Pikemen Reg C HI P, Sh M P 82
4E Ordonnance Pikemen Reg C HI P, Sh M P 82
4E Ordonnance Pikemen Reg C HI P, Sh M P 82
2E Ordonnance Handgunners Reg C LI HG 22
2E Ordonnance Handgunners Reg C LI HG 22
2E Ordonnance Handgunners Reg C LI HG 22
6E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg C LMI LB, Sh, Stks 100
Italians
2E Sub-General SHK L Reg B, Reg C 147
2E Italian Savoyard Reg C LC CB 34
2E Italian Savoyard Reg C LC CB 34
2E Italian Crossbow Reg C LI CB 22
2E Italian Crossbow Reg C LI CB 22

Total 1,602

Scouting 20
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject:

Here are two defensive lists for 1600 Dogs of War:

War of the Roses English (Tudor)

1x CinC Reg A SHK L, Sh with Pa standard + 1 Men-At-Arms Reg A SHK L, Sh: 235 pts
6x Retinue Billmen Reg C EHI 2HCT, HI 2HCT: 178 pts
4x Household Longbowmen Reg B HI LB: 106 pts
4x Retinue Longbowmen Reg C LB: 58 pts
4x Retinue Longbowmen Reg C LB: 58 pts
4x Shire Levy Billmen Reg D HI 2HCT, Sh: 98 pts
4x Shire Levy Billmen Reg D HI 2HCT, Sh: 98 pts
6x Shire Levy Longbowmen LMI LB: 58 pts
6x Shire Levy Longbowmen LMI LB: 58 pts
6x Shire Levy Longbowmen LMI LB: 58 pts
6x Shire Levy Longbowmen LMI LB: 58 pts
4x Shire Levy Longbowmen LMI LB, Stakes: 50 pts
4x Shire Levy Longbowmen LMI LB, Stakes: 50 pts
4x Shire Levy Longbowmen LMI LB, Stakes: 50 pts
4x French Crossbowmen Reg D LHI CB: 74 pts
4x French Crossbowmen Reg D LHI CB: 74 pts
2x Organ Guns 3 Reg C crew and 2 oxen: 50 pts
1x Bombard 4 Reg C crew and oxen: 50 pts
1x Bombard 4 Reg C crew and oxen: 50 pts
24x Ditched Palisade: 80 pts


Later Teutonic Order (Middle Period)
1x CinC SHK L, Sh with PA standard + 3 Reg A SHK L, Sh: 361 pts
2x Brother Sergeants Reg B HC L, Sh: 76 pts
2x Mounted Crossbowmen Reg B LC CB: 38 pts
2x Livonian Cavalry Reg D LC B: 30 pts
2x Livonian Cavalry Reg D LC B: 30 pts
2x Livonian Cavalry Reg D LC B: 30 pts
2x Livonian Cavalry Reg D LC B: 30 pts
2x Livonian Cavalry Reg D LC B: 30 pts
6x Livonian Spearmen Reg D LMI JLS, Sh: 70 pts
12x Livonian Spearmen Reg D LMI 6x 2HCW,JLS, Sh / 6x JLS, Sh: 178 pts
6x Livonian Bowmen Reg D LMI 3x 2HCW, B, Sh / 3x B, Sh: 94 pts
4x Crusader Knights 1/2 Irr A, 1/2 Irr B SHK L, Sh: 247 pts
6x Feudal Crossbowmen Reg D HI CB, Stakes: 118 pts
6x Feudal Infantry Reg D HI JLS, Sh: 130 pts
1x Bombard 4 Reg C crew and oxen: 50 pts
1x Bombard 4 Reg C crew and oxen: 50 pts
12x Wagon Lager: 40 pts


Also, how important are scouting points to a defensive list?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: Burgundian List

jhill4913@comcast.net wrote:
Burgundian Ordonnance (List 40)

2E CinC Reg A SHK L 168
2E Household Longbowmen Reg B LHI 2HCW, LB, Stks 68
2E Household Longbowmen Reg B LHI 2HCW, LB, Stks 68
2E Gendarmes/Coustilliers Reg B SHK L, HC L 91
2E Gendarmes/Coustilliers Reg B SHK L, HC L 91
2E Gendarmes/Coustilliers Reg B SHK L, HC L 91
4E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg B LHI LB 2HCW, Stks 118
4E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg B LHI LB 2HCW, Stks 118
4E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg B LHI LB 2HCW, Stks 118
4E Ordonnance Pikemen Reg C HI P, Sh M P 82
4E Ordonnance Pikemen Reg C HI P, Sh M P 82
4E Ordonnance Pikemen Reg C HI P, Sh M P 82
2E Ordonnance Handgunners Reg C LI HG 22
2E Ordonnance Handgunners Reg C LI HG 22
2E Ordonnance Handgunners Reg C LI HG 22
6E Ordonnance Longbowmen Reg C LMI LB, Sh, Stks 100
Italians
2E Sub-General SHK L Reg B, Reg C 147
2E Italian Savoyard Reg C LC CB 34
2E Italian Savoyard Reg C LC CB 34
2E Italian Crossbow Reg C LI CB 22
2E Italian Crossbow Reg C LI CB 22

Total 1,602

Scouting 20


Don't take this personally, but I'll rant a bit about Burgundian Ordannance in general and the difficulty of playing the list:

* Reg B LHI LB, 1/2 2HCW, stakes:
** No shields. This is going to be a problem. You're banking on dense shooting and have a total of 64 figures of 4 to a stand shooters. Early Burgundian, by contrast, will have double to triple that number. So will any Meso American army. My 10 Independent States Chinese field about 275 figures of shooting on 1600 points. So matched up against a true dense shooting opponent you're going to get outshot, and being LHI instead of LMI isn't going to totally compensate. You have to live in skirmish, because otherwise you're just shieldless guys waiting to get shot to pieces. You will still take 2CPF in prep regularly, and thus have to recall. Now you have to make a counter to get back into skirmish (and you're steadily yielding ground). Mostly you'll make that counter, but fail it once and the unit that fails is dead.
** LHI is too expensive compared to LMI. Your enemy fights at the same factor against you if he has L, 2HCW, 2HCT, or HTW. That's a lot of points spent on armor that doesn't buy you very much.
** Reg B everywhere. Again, too expensive for what you get. Guess who rolls exactly the same shooting dice as you? My Reg D War of the Roses longbowmen. If shooting is your role in life, then quantity is more important than morale quality. You're spending points on things that won't affect the outcome.

* Reg B Gendarmes / Coustilliers:
** No generals. Now you'll almost never be impetuous. Have fun with that.
** No ability to dismount. Your SHK dismount as very potent SHI, but since you only have one stand of HC, and HC dismount 2 for 1, you can't dismount. You've lost an important tactical ace in the hole to have at the ready.
** Can't charge in the brush. You are disordered for charging in the brush, and since your second rank is HC, that's the troop type your opponent will fight against. Nonimpetuous disordered HC lose to... well, just about everybody.
** Stakes. Hi, I have elephants. Now what are you going to do? (Elephants ignore stakes.)

* The Italians: Okay, I get that without the Italians you get no LC, and have virtually no scouting points. But do you really want your only general other than the CinC to be in a C class body? Really?

* The pikemen: Expensive with HI. And they will be completely ignored. They are incapable of catching an opponent, and your army is so tiny that your opponent can easily fight everywhere the pikemen are not. I throw a couple of 4 figure Reg D LI units in front of these guys and call it a day while I fight elsewhere. What are you going to do about it? With great effort and help from some units beyond your pikemen you may eventually bag yourself 36 points of LI. Meanwhile I'm enveloping your army, charging your flanks, shooting your dudes, and laughing at your attempts to use terrain to anchor your flanks because not enough of your army can fight in terrain.

None of this is your fault. And none of this is Four Horsemen's fault either. We play ahistorical open tournament formats. They designed a rules system to accurately reflect historical in period matchups. In the collision of these two ambitions, some armies fare poorly in the open tournament format. Burgundian Ordannance is one of the worst in such a format.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Mark,
You've made a lot of great points and have probably saved me a "whipping" at my next friendly match. Like billmen, pikes just don't match with LB units in the WARRIOR rules. I'll have to look at Swiss LHI pike perhaps. Also great point about too few LB so I'll have to keep painting figs and go for HYW or Early Burgundian. My BO units are neither good fighters or shooters. HC rear ranks do suck in many circumstances and actually hurt the SHK front ranks in some. I think your mistaken about dismounting SHK/HC units as I discovered after this recent post (see below) by Frank. (I think it was in the Army List section). I'm do want a solid defensive army list with LB and SHK that lets me sit back and watch better opponents try to get through or around my obstacles.
Thanks again,
Jimmy Hill

however,Derek was correct Wink...
"As an exception to the normal rules for unit size, a dismounted unit may have a size of one element."

Finally got around to my rules.

Rob is not correct as the restriction on declaring charges applies only to independent staff elements. 2.513 "An independent staff element cannot declare charges unless it is joined to a non-artillery unit."

Also, 6.161, those eligible to charge, does not prohibit this type of body from charging...so it can charge.

I read the rules!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject:

Jim,

The best "vehicle" (or army) for Swiss is Early Burgundian IMO.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject:

What is the best longbow army for the "Dogs of War" list restriction?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:56 pm    Post subject: Dogs of War

What is the best longbow/SHK list with the "dogs of war" restrictions?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject:

Most likely Early Burgundian as all the LB/CB guys start as Reg D...as do the LI.

You will end up with a bunch of D shooters, probably stakes to protect them in the open, some D LI, and the LC unit plus Knights SHK/EHK (Early period). Solid army.
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