Warrior Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules
A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
 
  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups AlbumAlbum   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Ideas for a Japanese list

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Tactics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Terry D
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: Ideas for a Japanese list

I will be attending Historicon this year and seeing as the hobby seems to have gone away from 15mm I only have Japanese in 25/28mm.
Looking at the list it is long on decent foot but weak on cav and scouting.

I like the LEHI samurai but they get expensive fast. The question then is how dangerous is it to have the second rank as LMI ashigaru with the missle weapon of choice? If I do use them should I bother with 1HCW? Im currently thinking of perhaps no mounted at all, as someone who ran an all mounted Bactrian army for years this kills me, and rely on my LI for all of my scouting. Im thinking of using a couple smaller 2el EHI 2hct,lb for potential flanking and second round charging. Any advice would be appreciated
Thanks Terry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
jamiepwhite
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 180
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:19 am    Post subject: Common Japanese troop choices

Most Japanese armies that I've faced have commonly fielded 6 or 8 element units of 1/2 LEHI 2HCT LB and 1/2 LMI 1HCW LB. I wouldn't call it dangerous, but yes the unit gets in trouble if disordered or flanked.

The Oracle and I have debated cav or no cav for Japanese a lot, a little bit of cav and recognizing the limitations of HC LB is important. No cav isn't a bad option. Trying to get the Japanese cav to work on the table is very hard, some opposing cav types they walk over and others they are worthless against.
LB or B
HC, HK, or EHK all fight differently
LB, LB and 2HCW/1HCW, and even LB and 2HCT all go further to make the cav flaky.

If you treat the cav as just mounted samurai that get there faster, you are probably using them right.

One Derekcon was experimenting with a lot of IC LMI LB 2/1HCW units. These were a mixed blessing, in some games they would easily stretch across the table, holding flanks and driving back the opponent. The next game, the IC LMI would blow up and wipe out whole commands.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:56 pm    Post subject:

SOP for the later Japanese as refined by several folks is:
7 or 9 element units of LEHI backed by LMI, 1 element of Irr A in the front rank, rest Irr B 2HCT front and 1HCW back.

The dangling odd element in the rear is LMI designed to provide 2 figures for casualty calculations so the unit is not 18 or 24, but 20 or 26 (in particular 26 figures is a pretty big deal).

You also try to have one HC unit per gap between foot units to drive off enemy LI and skirmishing loose, causing wavers. Otherwise you have to try to use shooting and charges of your LEHI/LMI...very very inefficient.

Then the final question is whether to use Bow or Longbow, as you have the choice.

Longbow can't shoot in support from a rear rank when charging, which sometimes matters. Bow can. Bow has a higher factor when shooting at elephants, than Longbow.

Still, Longbow fires from the charge reach of the LEHI/LMI, or 120p. Its value against armored targets is almost always irrelevant.

The only answer there would be playesting.

Since terrain is pre-placed now, you should also consider being able to turn in 20 points for 6 elements section of Ditched Palisade to make your own terrain feature as you won't cover the table.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:10 am    Post subject: Sample list

Here is a sample list:
CinC PA 2E Irr B HC LB 152
Sub similar 92
2 units of 2E Irr B HC LB 134
9E unit of Irr B(1 A) LEHI(4)/LMI(5) 2HCT,LB(4)/1HCW,LB(5) 196
4 more such units 784
That's 1358, and as many 'good' Samurai units as you can afford.

You now would likely take some Irr D LI B for scouting and frontage (particularly to stick in whatever terrain you find).

Finally one or two more loose infantry unit(s) would work, perhaps entirely Irr C...again for terrain. Note that these last units should probably not be 2HCT in front, but rather 2HCW, as the former cannot be used in the Woods.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Todd Kaeser
Centurion
Centurion


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1024
Location: Foxborough, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject:

The problem is also frontage. The ditch helps. In Frank's list you could take 2E from the 5 units and make another 7E unit (or about cost) and give you 180mm more coverage.

Tough units.

Todd

_________________
Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum
"Don't let the Bastards Grind You Down"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Frontage

There is the 'other' Japanese option...

Take a LOT of Irr D and Irr C guys and use the TFs, etc., with the Samurai in smaller units (2-5 elements).

You put out shooting across a wide frontage and cover the table, marching the Samurai to where the big fight(s) will be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Matt Kollmer
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject:

Japanese are tricky..... the approach I took... and later in teams with woyke, was to use 4E units of full LEHI and maximize the wesponry. The feeling being it has no “weakness “ you can’t pick out weaker units, they’re all samurai. Ashugaru was used to plug up terrain as they’re required. I did like using a mounted unit or two as Mobil samurai and use them where they’d be needed to help in the fight.... reserves.
For the most part, I preferred bow to longbow... which I know sounds strange coming from a player who runs 100 Year war english! In the years I was running the list, most armies were not very susceptible to LB... so it was based more on expected opponents.
For the most part I did ok with the list... I have seen them run as front rank full boat samurai and rear ashigaru, I felt I wasn’t a good enough player to rely on never getting disordered, in which case your running very expensive LMI.... and they get fragile fast, however it’s way better on frontage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message [ Hidden ]
Frank Gilson
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: Orange County California

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject:

I think the key here is that even the Japanese list, which we view as very self-similar in many cases, has a lot of variance.

I personally favor a ton of 'junk' with some elite Samurai units, and the two sections of temporary fortifications.

The old way of several monolithic huge Samurai units slowly advancing did not provide solid results to its players.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Mark Stone
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2013
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject:

Alex and I have toyed around with the idea of running Japanese as a mounted army, the idea being that Japanese are the only troops that can use longbow while mounted. So you take longbow instead of bow, and buy a lot of 9 figure and 18 figure units 3 ranks deep, getting you 6 figures of longbow shooting per element of frontage.

It's not the strongest way to play Japanese, but it is somewhat playable, and would certainly catch a few opponents by surprise when you announce your scouting points.

The other option, which I've given more serious consideration, is to actually play the Korean list with Japanese allies. Getting some Samurai (just LHI, not the LEHI variant) fighting alongside SHC and EHC has some interesting possibilities.

All of this is just to support Frank's point that we look at Japanese as being something of a monolithic list and it's really not. There are a lot of directions you can go with it, and as a group we haven't fully explored those ideas in competition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules Forum Index -> Tactics All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group