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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Early Paleologian NICT

Ewan McNay wrote:
2 CinC Reg A/B HK L, Sh
2 2iC Sub Reg B HK L, Sh
2 Irr B HK L, Sh
2 Irr B HK L, Sh

4 Reg C H/MC L, B, SH/L, B (Mongol)
4 Reg C H/MC L, B, SH/L, B (Mongol)
2 Reg B LC B (Mongol)
2 Reg B LC B (Mongol)
2 Reg C LC B (Mongol)

2 Reg B HC L, B, Sh (Byzantine)
2 Reg B HC L, B, Sh (Byzantine)

6 Reg D(1 C) LMI B,Sh/B
6 Reg D(1 C) LMI B,Sh/B
6 Reg D LI B, Sh/B
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg B LHI/LMI 2HCW, JLS, Sh


Another revised now playable Byzantine version...Early Pal.

You don't get the French Irr A SHK of Later Pal...but you do get some Mongols who excel dismounted, yet still have a mounted option...so really this is a dense shooting army with some HK and utility. I think we'll see it again.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:50 pm    Post subject:

Frank Gilson wrote:
Todd Kaeser wrote:
Todd Kaeser

Christian Nubian
1604 32 scouting

CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh PA (EP) 172
2E Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh (EP) 91
2E Elephants Ir C 2 w/ Jls 105
2E Elephants Ir C 2 w/ Jls 105
8E Spear Ir D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh 157
4E Marines Reg C LMI Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Marines Reg C LMI Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Returning Vets Reg C LMI Jls,B,Sh 90
6E javelins Ir C LI Jls,Sh 61

Sub - 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh P (EP) 109
2E Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh (EP) 91
6E Light Cav Ir C LC Jls,Sh 97
4E Marines Reg C LMI Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Returning Vets Reg C LMI Jls,B,Sh 90
4E Returning Vets Reg C LMI Jls,B,Sh 90
6E slingers Ir C LI S,Sh 61

Stone walls 15


Who is this Cheese Lord fellow and what is this list?

Well, Todd leverages his great experience with Regular loose missile foot that also have a melee capability.

Todd will have to comment...but I'd ask him how he felt about his frontage coverage (ability to influence/attack/deny table width).

Additionally, I don't quite like the Irr C LI or LC JLS,Sh.

Todd, finally, did you use the forward placeable Ditch?


You do make me giggle Frank.....

2 years ago I found the list to be more than adequate to cover the space but this year was very different. I wasn't able to control the spots of attacks - had to be the matchups overall and I paid the price. My dice were quite poor overall - especially in shooting and waivers. The stone walls were designed to try to cut down space especially on day 1 and I did not effectively place it and use it. Greg with Timurid and Mark with Lat. Pal Byz controlled the space better than I and I got crushed. The 2nd day I also struggled but a bit less- ok vs. Rich's Granadine (I misplayed a brush and Rich took advantage of it) and did ok vs. Alex's 10IS and then got crushed by Bill's Tepanec on the ice.

The poor lights are tough to work with - I was hoping the loose foot with missiles would supplement this lack and the terrain would help.

I didn't prepare as well as I did last year and it showed. Rough go for sure.

Todd

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Frank Gilson wrote:
Todd Kaeser wrote:
Todd Kaeser

Christian Nubian
1604 32 scouting

CinC 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh PA (EP) 172
2E Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh (EP) 91
2E Elephants Ir C 2 w/ Jls 105
2E Elephants Ir C 2 w/ Jls 105
8E Spear Ir D (1C) MI LTS,Jls,D,Sh 157
4E Marines Reg C LMI Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Marines Reg C LMI Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Returning Vets Reg C LMI Jls,B,Sh 90
6E javelins Ir C LI Jls,Sh 61

Sub - 2E Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh P (EP) 109
2E Cav Ir B EHC/HC L,Sh (EP) 91
6E Light Cav Ir C LC Jls,Sh 97
4E Marines Reg C LMI Jls,S,Sh 90
4E Returning Vets Reg C LMI Jls,B,Sh 90
4E Returning Vets Reg C LMI Jls,B,Sh 90
6E slingers Ir C LI S,Sh 61

Stone walls 15


Who is this Cheese Lord fellow and what is this list?

Well, Todd leverages his great experience with Regular loose missile foot that also have a melee capability.

Todd will have to comment...but I'd ask him how he felt about his frontage coverage (ability to influence/attack/deny table width).

Additionally, I don't quite like the Irr C LI or LC JLS,Sh.

Todd, finally, did you use the forward placeable Ditch?


You do make me giggle Frank.....

2 years ago I found the list to be more than adequate to cover the space but this year was very different. I wasn't able to control the spots of attacks - had to be the matchups overall and I paid the price. My dice were quite poor overall - especially in shooting and waivers. The stone walls were designed to try to cut down space especially on day 1 and I did not effectively place it and use it. Greg with Timurid and Mark with Lat. Pal Byz controlled the space better than I and I got crushed. The 2nd day I also struggled but a bit less- ok vs. Rich's Granadine (I misplayed a brush and Rich took advantage of it) and did ok vs. Alex's 10IS and then got crushed by Bill's Tepanec on the ice.

The poor lights are tough to work with - I was hoping the loose foot with missiles would supplement this lack and the terrain would help.

I didn't prepare as well as I did last year and it showed. Rough go for sure.

Todd


Yeah, that rust is pretty thick...I can tell you. Creeaaaakkkkk...
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Early Paleologian NICT

Frank Gilson wrote:
Ewan McNay wrote:
2 CinC Reg A/B HK L, Sh
2 2iC Sub Reg B HK L, Sh
2 Irr B HK L, Sh
2 Irr B HK L, Sh

4 Reg C H/MC L, B, SH/L, B (Mongol)
4 Reg C H/MC L, B, SH/L, B (Mongol)
2 Reg B LC B (Mongol)
2 Reg B LC B (Mongol)
2 Reg C LC B (Mongol)

2 Reg B HC L, B, Sh (Byzantine)
2 Reg B HC L, B, Sh (Byzantine)

6 Reg D(1 C) LMI B,Sh/B
6 Reg D(1 C) LMI B,Sh/B
6 Reg D LI B, Sh/B
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg B LHI/LMI 2HCW, JLS, Sh


Another revised now playable Byzantine version...Early Pal.

You don't get the French Irr A SHK of Later Pal...but you do get some Mongols who excel dismounted, yet still have a mounted option...so really this is a dense shooting army with some HK and utility. I think we'll see it again.


A very interesting list and a very Ewan list as well. Fire and maneuver - hit a flank or other opportunity. Mongol rules for the LC and this is a very dangerous army. Varangian unit for schwerpunkt at a point in the enemy army as well. Regular army with 4 HK units, shooting and some shooting/fighting units with Gazmouli units = Jls,B,Sh.

I'll have to get some Mongol HC and LC to build this for the future. Looks like a fun army to run.

Todd

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Early Paleologian NICT

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Frank Gilson wrote:
Ewan McNay wrote:
2 CinC Reg A/B HK L, Sh
2 2iC Sub Reg B HK L, Sh
2 Irr B HK L, Sh
2 Irr B HK L, Sh

4 Reg C H/MC L, B, SH/L, B (Mongol)
4 Reg C H/MC L, B, SH/L, B (Mongol)
2 Reg B LC B (Mongol)
2 Reg B LC B (Mongol)
2 Reg C LC B (Mongol)

2 Reg B HC L, B, Sh (Byzantine)
2 Reg B HC L, B, Sh (Byzantine)

6 Reg D(1 C) LMI B,Sh/B
6 Reg D(1 C) LMI B,Sh/B
6 Reg D LI B, Sh/B
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg C LMI JLS, B, Sh
4 Reg B LHI/LMI 2HCW, JLS, Sh


Another revised now playable Byzantine version...Early Pal.

You don't get the French Irr A SHK of Later Pal...but you do get some Mongols who excel dismounted, yet still have a mounted option...so really this is a dense shooting army with some HK and utility. I think we'll see it again.


A very interesting list and a very Ewan list as well. Fire and maneuver - hit a flank or other opportunity. Mongol rules for the LC and this is a very dangerous army. Varangian unit for schwerpunkt at a point in the enemy army as well. Regular army with 4 HK units, shooting and some shooting/fighting units with Gazmouli units = Jls,B,Sh.

I'll have to get some Mongol HC and LC to build this for the future. Looks like a fun army to run.

Todd


I think you would do well with this list in particular, oh Cheese Lord...has some similarities to KOSJ...lots of dense shooting, some of which can fight, some lancers, good frontage.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject: Alexandrian Imperial list

Robert Turnbull - Alex Imperial

2 Alex L 150
2 Companions L 70
3 Sub Hc, L 100
3 elephant escorts li, b, 18
2 elephant escorts li,b 18
4 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
2 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
2 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
Mac El 2 Irr C El 105
LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
LC lc jls 38
3 Mac El 2 Irr C El 105
4 Peltasts Rg c LMI LTS,jls sh 90
2 Companions Hc, L 70
7 Bactrians Lc, jls, b 95
Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Hypaspists Rg B LHI/LMI LTS,sh 110
4 Peltasts Rg c LMI LTS,jls sh 90
2 LC lc jls 38
2 LC lc jls 38
2 LC lc, jls 38
1605
55 scouting
So the strength of this list is good supporting cavalry, combines with Push elements of Pike or Elephants or both , reasonable Loose troops (Hypaspists are very vulnerable to good strike foot - and cannot skirmish),and good light infantry light cavalty - The weakness of the list I took was nothing had enough Mass to really push - 3 elephants are way better than 2 and 8 element Pike is much more durable than 4 - agains Ewan I got a draw based on his bad luck - but he killed Hypaspists who could not run, and agains The Black Knight - he shot my line to pieces - an up 2 (to be expected with enough shots- followed by up 3 when a pike block charged into an exposed flank saw my army go home home - 18@3 vs !8@ 0 - -5 on fight vs -1 . But Army was spread out and he played it much better than I did - I had no obvious win oppurtunities he had many
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Alexandrian Imperial list

lilroblis wrote:
Robert Turnbull - Alex Imperial

2 Alex L 150
2 Companions L 70
3 Sub Hc, L 100
3 elephant escorts li, b, 18
2 elephant escorts li,b 18
4 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
2 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
2 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
Mac El 2 Irr C El 105
LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
LC lc jls 38
3 Mac El 2 Irr C El 105
4 Peltasts Rg c LMI LTS,jls sh 90
2 Companions Hc, L 70
7 Bactrians Lc, jls, b 95
Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Hypaspists Rg B LHI/LMI LTS,sh 110
4 Peltasts Rg c LMI LTS,jls sh 90
2 LC lc jls 38
2 LC lc jls 38
2 LC lc, jls 38
1605
55 scouting
So the strength of this list is good supporting cavalry, combines with Push elements of Pike or Elephants or both , reasonable Loose troops (Hypaspists are very vulnerable to good strike foot - and cannot skirmish),and good light infantry light cavalty - The weakness of the list I took was nothing had enough Mass to really push - 3 elephants are way better than 2 and 8 element Pike is much more durable than 4 - agains Ewan I got a draw based on his bad luck - but he killed Hypaspists who could not run, and agains The Black Knight - he shot my line to pieces - an up 2 (to be expected with enough shots- followed by up 3 when a pike block charged into an exposed flank saw my army go home home - 18@3 vs !8@ 0 - -5 on fight vs -1 . But Army was spread out and he played it much better than I did - I had no obvious win oppurtunities he had many


Understandable but this army still possesses (as does Seleucid) the 2nd best elephants (with pike of course) and pikemen that are nearly unstoppable in 8E units to shooting and combat. I would agree that by running 4E units you increase maneuverability but lose "push"-ability. Great list overall on both days for terrain.

Todd

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Alexandrian Imperial list

Todd Kaeser wrote:
lilroblis wrote:
Robert Turnbull - Alex Imperial

2 Alex L 150
2 Companions L 70
3 Sub Hc, L 100
3 elephant escorts li, b, 18
2 elephant escorts li,b 18
4 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
2 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
2 LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
Mac El 2 Irr C El 105
LI Reg C li, jls, sh 26
LC lc jls 38
3 Mac El 2 Irr C El 105
4 Peltasts Rg c LMI LTS,jls sh 90
2 Companions Hc, L 70
7 Bactrians Lc, jls, b 95
Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Pk Hi/MI Pk, sh 82
4 Hypaspists Rg B LHI/LMI LTS,sh 110
4 Peltasts Rg c LMI LTS,jls sh 90
2 LC lc jls 38
2 LC lc jls 38
2 LC lc, jls 38
1605
55 scouting
So the strength of this list is good supporting cavalry, combines with Push elements of Pike or Elephants or both , reasonable Loose troops (Hypaspists are very vulnerable to good strike foot - and cannot skirmish),and good light infantry light cavalty - The weakness of the list I took was nothing had enough Mass to really push - 3 elephants are way better than 2 and 8 element Pike is much more durable than 4 - agains Ewan I got a draw based on his bad luck - but he killed Hypaspists who could not run, and agains The Black Knight - he shot my line to pieces - an up 2 (to be expected with enough shots- followed by up 3 when a pike block charged into an exposed flank saw my army go home home - 18@3 vs !8@ 0 - -5 on fight vs -1 . But Army was spread out and he played it much better than I did - I had no obvious win oppurtunities he had many


Understandable but this army still possesses (as does Seleucid) the 2nd best elephants (with pike of course) and pikemen that are nearly unstoppable in 8E units to shooting and combat. I would agree that by running 4E units you increase maneuverability but lose "push"-ability. Great list overall on both days for terrain.

Todd


I'd like Rob to talk about the Elephants in particular, why he has experimented with LI detachment, how that worked, how it didn't. Why he prefers units of 3 El to 2 El with LI.

Also, 4E pike really only work in my experience if you have 'a bunch' with little shooting distractor LI units around so the pike can't be concentrated on...and even then, they're close order foot that catch nothing so you also have to have elephants and/or lancers to run down skirmishing enemy foot.

I think I do prefer Rob's prior year 8 or 9 elephant version. Also, the Hypaspists just haven't 'kept up' with the evolution of the use of attacking foot, as Rob says.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:32 pm    Post subject: Alex Imperial

So the elephants are easy - the plan was to draw fire from the elephants with the detachments - did not do much, and 2 element units get shot up easily and being C class fail their waver tests as easily - so found that I was trying to protect them instead of attack with them. Last year I ran the IRR B indian elephants in 3's and they were the attacking arm of the army backed up by the pike.
Agreed on tthe pike - gainst Derek they did their job, against Dave Stier - I misdeployed - and he shot well - but the first was the bigger issue. Hypaspists have never been a favourite of mine - I think you do better to just take them as pike. Overall its not a terrible list, but shooter armies do better against it than other versions
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject: IRR A SHK - vs Irr B in nationals lists

So looking at the later paleologan list - I don't agree with using IRR A SHK - for me the investment in SHK is too high to have them led by the nose in most cases (must charge) - I would argue they are better used as IRR B - if you need an up 6 to win a fight - why pick it in the first place? Anyone care to opine?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: IRR A SHK - vs Irr B in nationals lists

lilroblis wrote:
So looking at the later paleologan list - I don't agree with using IRR A SHK - for me the investment in SHK is too high to have them led by the nose in most cases (must charge) - I would argue they are better used as IRR B - if you need an up 6 to win a fight - why pick it in the first place? Anyone care to opine?


Clearly Irr A SHK are rare and fairly unique...and one key virtue is retaining Irr A when dismounting...Irr A SHI/EHK 2HCW,Sh/JLS,Sh are...really tough guys when needed.

Also, the command can be given WAIT orders...all-in-all it just requires additional skill in deployment, orders, and movement to use them.

If you don't feel you need them dismounted, and don't value the ability to break other SHK on contact with an up roll, and don't want the awkwardness of having to charge under Attack or Probe orders ,then sure, use Irr B.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject:

I understand Rob's concern - if played too aggressively, or poorly, they can be sent off into the wild and surrounded and taken care of. It is certainly a challenge to use them properly. Irreg B gives you more control for sure.

However, I'll agree with Frank. The army has only the Varangians for pop and some knights as EHK/HK options. Supers are just that - with regard to armor and such. As Irreg A they do give you the chance in some unlikely spots to roll up and break a unit causing a cascade of waivers on contact. Charging into LTS/Pike is never a "great" option but hitting at a 5 and being able to roll up is huge - same vs. Peltasts, Meso-American, etc.... Dismounting vs. Elephants or other tough opponents is another nice advantage being "A". Now, one has to roll up with them - I'm spotty with "A" troops, but have had my moments with them.

I find this army and composition quite interesting myself.

I'm also wicked excited to have Feudal Warrior come back out and making the lists cleaner to make with the errata being absorbed into the books. I have finally painted enough knights to make a lot of these lists.

Todd

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject:

I think Irr A knights are generally a good thing to have, but you want 1 or 2 units of B's to be up toward the front without having to charge impetuous. The A's can generate the 3 CPF to break stuff in other than 1st contact situations, which is pretty powerful. Also, as Frank says, A's are bad dudes dismounted. Wallachian Irr A HK also are great for what they cost.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Nationals

I hear the thoughts - but the option is 2-3 units of SHK only - I would prefer Irr, B - because they give me Almughvars, and more control - Varangians, Peltastoi, 3 Units of muggs (or 2) and 5 units of knights - 3 EHK, 2 SHK - and all somewhat controllable. I feel you have a can opener - no matter what the can is, plus a good skirmish line that includes reg b lc - Taking IRR A eliminates the Muggs, and does not allow last minute decisions on attacks. I find that there are lots of accasions where the threat of a charge is more valuable than the charge itself
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: Nationals

lilroblis wrote:
I hear the thoughts - but the option is 2-3 units of SHK only - I would prefer Irr, B - because they give me Almughvars, and more control - Varangians, Peltastoi, 3 Units of muggs (or 2) and 5 units of knights - 3 EHK, 2 SHK - and all somewhat controllable. I feel you have a can opener - no matter what the can is, plus a good skirmish line that includes reg b lc - Taking IRR A eliminates the Muggs, and does not allow last minute decisions on attacks. I find that there are lots of accasions where the threat of a charge is more valuable than the charge itself


The Almughuvars are a siren song; don't use them, at least not on this list.

But let's unpack Irr A SHK a big, and Irr A more generally.

You have about a 42% chance of rolling up with Irr As. So if you are counting on a single up roll to turn the tide, then this is not a very good bet. But what if you are counting on an up roll once out of 2 or even 3 rolls, either because you expect a multi-bound combat, or because you sent in more than one Irr A unit, or some combination? This changes the math significantly.

With two die rolls, you have a 2/3 chance that at least one of them is +1. With three die rolls, you have more than an 80% chance that at least one of them is +1. So generally you can achieve this multi-chance at an up roll in one of two ways:
(1) numerical superiority. Send in lots of cheap units that are Irr A where you only need one of them to roll up. This works great with LMI, for example sending two small Irr A LMI units against a single elephant unit, needing only one of them to roll up, or sending multiple Irr A units against a big pike or LTS line unit, needing only one of them to roll up.
(2) durability. Your unit can hang around and generally win marginally bound after bound, but a key up roll can turn a recoil into a rout. Japanese are a good example of this kind of unit, as are dismounted SHK.

So the key is to stop thinking of Irr As as taking a gamble, and start finding use cases in which deploying Irr As is a way of playing the odds in your favor. There's a side bonus to doing this against a skilled player, because as the skilled player recognizes what you're doing there will be a commensurate reluctance to engage where the Irr As are present. This makes them pressurizing without having to be fully committed, which can be better than throwing them in and rolling the dice.

As for coping with the mandatory charge requirement: Dave calls out one strategy, which is to have some other troops -- such as Irr B SHK -- who can lead the way, freeing the Irr As to follow up -- or not -- as a reserve. The other strategy is to play a counter-punching army, and sit back under WAIT orders with no obligation to charge until the right bound as arrived.

Like so many things in Warrior, Irr As are a limited tool. Understand the limitations, and learn how to turn them to your advantage. And never fight against the odds.
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