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Biblical Warrior list rules questions and comments

 
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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject: Biblical Warrior list rules questions and comments

Derek and I were talking about playing Elamite vs. everything, but the fire density of the chariots (12 bowmen firing across on element) seems off. Anyway, Derek showed the Biblical Warrior list rule, but that seems off. Here are some comments:

I'm quoting the Biblical chariot rules here because I wanted to ask several questions about them and how they affect game balance:
BIBLICAL CHARIOT RULES Chariots dominated Near Eastern battlefields for a millennium, and became the defining arm of the period. The Battle Carts and Straddle-cars that appear in some early lists are treated as chariots for the purposes of these rules. The following rules apply to chariots in all Biblical Warrior lists:
1. Except where expressly stated otherwise, HCh with missile-armed crew may skirmish, if otherwise eligible, provided (in the case of 4-horse HCh) they are not more than one rank deep.
2. LCh is not an eligible charge target for light troops (other than LCh) as an exception to Warrior Rules 6.161, unless the target is unsteady or the chargers are starting at least partially behind the target’s flank (Warrior Rules 1.26).
3. As an exception to the General Concepts, a detachment of foot may form a combined unit with a parent body of chariots even if not of the same training class.
4. If chariots are in the front rank of a combined unit with a foot detachment, then (a) such units are not subject to the second and third bullets of Warrior Rules 1.163K (cancelled charges), and (b) the chariot portion of such a unit may be impetuous, if otherwise eligible, even if the detachment portion is nonimpetuous foot.
5. Chariot crewmen eligible to shoot under Warrior Rules 8.4 count the 1st such crewman shooting from each chariot as 3 figures, a 2nd as 2 figures and a 3rd or more as 1 figure each.
6. LMI chariot runners shoot in the same circumstances as LI chariot runners per the 11th bullet of Warrior Rules 8.7.
7. HCh and LCh may not be mixed in a single unit, even in cases in which LCh may be upgraded to HCh.

For paragraph 1, this reads to me as if the Hch is required to be up to 12 models wide, 1 deep, and no rear ranks or detachmets. Also, cheerfully being literal, the one rank deep requirement only applies to 4 horse heavy chariots, 2 or 3 horse heavy chaiots may skirmish if more than 1 rank deep?

For paragraph 2, this is just keeping Bibilical Warrior light chariots from being slaughtered by light cavalry like any other light chariot. I just have heartburn with a list rule that forbids an otherwise eligible charge that is permitted against any non Biblical Warrior light chariot.

For paragraph 3, no more broken than the Khmer list having irregular elephants and regular troops as detachments.

Paragraph 4, I think it might be clearer just to say if the chariots are the front rank of the unit, then treat the unit as mounted even though it contains nonimpetuous foot.

Paragraph 5, is clear but is treating Biblical Warrior chariot crew different than other chariot crews by having 3 crew shoot six instead of 4. Either nerf them down to shoot like everyone else or have Biblical warrior lists pay more for the additional shooting crewmen.

Paragraph 6 is allowing LMI bow to shoot from behind chariots in Biblical Warrior differently than the normal rules allow. I wish Khmer elephants could shoot their LMI bow detachments as a second rank. Any way, allowing the LMI element to shoot as an LI element seems a reasonable compromise. Also, LI B on the base of the elephant or chariot model counts as the second rank, a detachment of LI B or LMI B firing would then be in the third rank and thus blocked from firing.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Paragraph 6 is allowing LMI bow to shoot from behind chariots in Biblical Warrior differently than the normal rules allow. I wish Khmer elephants could shoot their LMI bow detachments as a second rank. Any way, allowing the LMI element to shoot as an LI element seems a reasonable compromise. Also, LI B on the base of the elephant or chariot model counts as the second rank, a detachment of LI B or LMI B firing would then be in the third rank and thus blocked from firing.


So wait - chariots who have LI on the base and detachments to the rear get to fire both of them as second rank (which for bow is full effect)?

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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: More on figures shooting

Derek was thinking 12 shooting across the frontage.
6 from chariot crew
2 from LI chariot runners (these are second rank shooters I believe)
4 from an element of regular LMI B (shoot 4 if second rank but I suspect these should be counted as third rank and blocked).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: More on figures shooting

jamiepwhite wrote:
Derek was thinking 12 shooting across the frontage.
6 from chariot crew
2 from LI chariot runners (these are second rank shooters I believe)
4 from an element of regular LMI B (shoot 4 if second rank but I suspect these should be counted as third rank and blocked).


That is exactly correct, 12 fire per element of so equipped HCh on the Elamite list.

Have gone over this multiple times with "Are we sure" with Bill and Scott for months.

1) Skirmishing Biblical HCh - you are correct, they can only be one rank deep when skirmishing if 4 horsed. This includes nothing in a 2nd rank (including detachment). So, if the Elamite HCh with detachment want to skirmish, the detachment must either not be attached, OR it must be in the front rank. Yes, 2 or 3 horse HCh Biblical do not face this restriction.

2) Is designed from the standpoint as best we understand history and the use of LCh in the Biblical period and how they faced opposing light troops. Various folks have varying opinions about how it plays out...but don't put your LC in front of Biblical LCh at this point.

3) Yup, like the Elephant exception, Khmer, etc.

4) No...'treat as mounted' is a little insane, we actually do have to check what 'as mounted' we want and what we don't here (like Approach priority, for one thing).

5) Sadly in Warrior, I'll admit it, we have a broken points system...we try to 'patch' this over with special book rules, list rules, and things like Barbarian Infantry rules.

6) Nope. Note that LI on base with chariots or elephants are quite clearly NOT a 2nd rank. They fire 'as if' they were a 2nd rank of a LI body, but are in the front rank. Thus the LMI detachment in the actual 2nd rank of the Elamite chariots are the actual 2nd rank, and can fire at full effect.

It's 12 figures shooting at 80p per Elamite HCh so configured. The unit costs 142 points (147 with Sub gen, 197 with CinC). It approaches as foot. It's awkward to wheel. It quickly becomes tired for shooting, especially if it charges...quickly becomes tired for hth fighting...and there are only going to be maybe 6 such units on 1600 points.

Oppose them with things that are resistant to bow fire...try to maneuver and counter to stay out of 80p...leverage existing terrain to break up the chariot presence, generally you can have better terrain troops than the Elamite army. As usual be careful how much frontage you're trying to fight over as opposed to that where you just skirmish or delay.

Frank
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: More on figures shooting plus abusing the rules for Khmer

From 13.15 "...LI on a common base with front rank elephants shoot as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body. ..." I am reading this to mean that LI B would shoot two figures and if the elephant escort infantry was sling or javelin armed, the elephant escort infantry would shoot half a rank, 1 figure. This sounds like the elephant on the model is first rank, the LI is second rank, and any other elements should start counting at third rank.


Also, going back to the Khmer lists. Smile From 9.23, buried in the middle "... Troops armed with JLS regardless of other weapons, also fight at half effect IF: They are fighting against elephants

So a Khmer elephant with the RA LMI JLS Sh parent unit charges as an elephant model and then, if fighting an enemy elephant, the Maiden Guard foot would start fighting at half effect as the second rank in subsequent bounds? Things you find when reading the rules.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: More on figures shooting plus abusing the rules for Khme

jamiepwhite wrote:
From 13.15 "...LI on a common base with front rank elephants shoot as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body. ..." I am reading this to mean that LI B would shoot two figures and if the elephant escort infantry was sling or javelin armed, the elephant escort infantry would shoot half a rank, 1 figure. This sounds like the elephant on the model is first rank, the LI is second rank, and any other elements should start counting at third rank.


Also, going back to the Khmer lists. Smile From 9.23, buried in the middle "... Troops armed with JLS regardless of other weapons, also fight at half effect IF: They are fighting against elephants

So a Khmer elephant with the RA LMI JLS Sh parent unit charges as an elephant model and then, if fighting an enemy elephant, the Maiden Guard foot would start fighting at half effect as the second rank in subsequent bounds? Things you find when reading the rules.


The key is the text "as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body", with regard to LI on the common base with chariots or elephants or behind non-elephant mounted.

The LMI shooter detachment behind a Chariot (elephants have no exception to be shot over) shoots in the "same circumstances", but are LMI, not LI.

These are NOT actual 2nd rank or 3rd rank. The LI on a common base are in the front rank, the 1st rank. The LMI archer detachment behind the Elamite HCh are in the 2nd rank. "as if second rank" not "are a second rank".

As for Elephants with JLS foot behind them, look at the JLS fight line from 9.23 "A second rank of foot armed with JLS, not eligible to fight with another weapon, behind a front rank of foot, cavalry or chariots armed with any weapons, fights at half effect." Behind FOOT, CAVALRY or CHARIOT (not elephants). So no, those Khmer elephants cannot have foot fighting from behind them. You appear to be looking at an old copy of the rules pre-clarification.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: More on figures shooting plus abusing the rules for Khme

Frank Gilson wrote:
jamiepwhite wrote:
From 13.15 "...LI on a common base with front rank elephants shoot as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body. ..." I am reading this to mean that LI B would shoot two figures and if the elephant escort infantry was sling or javelin armed, the elephant escort infantry would shoot half a rank, 1 figure. This sounds like the elephant on the model is first rank, the LI is second rank, and any other elements should start counting at third rank.


Also, going back to the Khmer lists. Smile From 9.23, buried in the middle "... Troops armed with JLS regardless of other weapons, also fight at half effect IF: They are fighting against elephants

So a Khmer elephant with the RA LMI JLS Sh parent unit charges as an elephant model and then, if fighting an enemy elephant, the Maiden Guard foot would start fighting at half effect as the second rank in subsequent bounds? Things you find when reading the rules.


The key is the text "as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body", with regard to LI on the common base with chariots or elephants or behind non-elephant mounted.

The LMI shooter detachment behind a Chariot (elephants have no exception to be shot over) shoots in the "same circumstances", but are LMI, not LI.

These are NOT actual 2nd rank or 3rd rank. The LI on a common base are in the front rank, the 1st rank. The LMI archer detachment behind the Elamite HCh are in the 2nd rank. "as if second rank" not "are a second rank".

As for Elephants with JLS foot behind them, look at the JLS fight line from 9.23 "A second rank of foot armed with JLS, not eligible to fight with another weapon, behind a front rank of foot, cavalry or chariots armed with any weapons, fights at half effect." Behind FOOT, CAVALRY or CHARIOT (not elephants). So no, those Khmer elephants cannot have foot fighting from behind them. You appear to be looking at an old copy of the rules pre-clarification.


... fight at half effect at first contact. ... We agree that in the charge or first bound, the sentence forbids JLS from fighting from behind an elephant. But the sentence is restricted to first contact and the later sentence is restricted only to fighting against elephants.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: More on figures shooting plus abusing the rules for Khme

jamiepwhite wrote:
Frank Gilson wrote:
jamiepwhite wrote:
From 13.15 "...LI on a common base with front rank elephants shoot as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body. ..." I am reading this to mean that LI B would shoot two figures and if the elephant escort infantry was sling or javelin armed, the elephant escort infantry would shoot half a rank, 1 figure. This sounds like the elephant on the model is first rank, the LI is second rank, and any other elements should start counting at third rank.


Also, going back to the Khmer lists. Smile From 9.23, buried in the middle "... Troops armed with JLS regardless of other weapons, also fight at half effect IF: They are fighting against elephants

So a Khmer elephant with the RA LMI JLS Sh parent unit charges as an elephant model and then, if fighting an enemy elephant, the Maiden Guard foot would start fighting at half effect as the second rank in subsequent bounds? Things you find when reading the rules.


The key is the text "as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body", with regard to LI on the common base with chariots or elephants or behind non-elephant mounted.

The LMI shooter detachment behind a Chariot (elephants have no exception to be shot over) shoots in the "same circumstances", but are LMI, not LI.

These are NOT actual 2nd rank or 3rd rank. The LI on a common base are in the front rank, the 1st rank. The LMI archer detachment behind the Elamite HCh are in the 2nd rank. "as if second rank" not "are a second rank".

As for Elephants with JLS foot behind them, look at the JLS fight line from 9.23 "A second rank of foot armed with JLS, not eligible to fight with another weapon, behind a front rank of foot, cavalry or chariots armed with any weapons, fights at half effect." Behind FOOT, CAVALRY or CHARIOT (not elephants). So no, those Khmer elephants cannot have foot fighting from behind them. You appear to be looking at an old copy of the rules pre-clarification.


... fight at half effect at first contact. ... We agree that in the charge or first bound, the sentence forbids JLS from fighting from behind an elephant. But the sentence is restricted to first contact and the later sentence is restricted only to fighting against elephants.


Noooo, make sure your rules are fully and thoroughly updated. They no longer have the paragraph in 9.23:
"(JLS) A second rank of foot armed with JLS and behind a front rank of foot, cavalry or chariots, fights at half effect at first contact. Foot not also armed with LTS, 2HCW, 2HCT or HTW also fight at half effect in later bounds of a combat. Troops armed with JLS, regardless of other weapons, also fight at half effect in later bounds IF:
• They are fighting against elephants
• They are pursuing.
• They are chariot or elephant crew.

If no other weapon is eligible, these figures count as “other weapons” (using the JLS factor, see 9.3).
In some situations, a JLS-armed figure may not be able to fight from a second rank based on its being armed with JLS, but may be able to due to its other weaponry."

They instead have the paragraph:
"(JLS) A second rank of foot armed with JLS, not eligible to fight with another weapon, behind a front rank of foot, cavalry or chariots armed with any weapons, fights at half effect. An exception may be made on the basis of a List Rule. Troops armed with JLS not eligible to fight with another weapon fight using the appropriate crew or ‘other’ column. They may receive a JLS+ (see 9.3)."
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject: Drat

Darn errata crushing my dream of Khmer elephants trampling everywhere. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Drat

jamiepwhite wrote:
Darn errata crushing my dream of Khmer elephants trampling everywhere. Smile


Sadly, yes...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject:

Can we please have the 4 horsemen produce a complete rules set to print out????? We wouldn't have to leaf through errata or constantly add can cross off rules.

Todd

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Can we please have the 4 horsemen produce a complete rules set to print out????? We wouldn't have to leaf through errata or constantly add can cross off rules.

Todd


Perhaps you should personally speak with Bill and Scott about this. I agree it should be done, but all voices clamoring for an updated digital rulebook would help.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject:

I would love a digital copy as well

Todd

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