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Resolving HTH when hit by converted charge

 
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:18 am    Post subject: Resolving HTH when hit by converted charge

Resolving combat in direction order, a follow up results in a converted charge into an enemy that has yet to resolve its HTH from a friend (next in direction order) that has just charged the same bound.
How /When is this next combat resolved?
If there are other multiple combats linked to it down the line (as can often happen with a daisy chain of overlapping units) How/When are they resolved since a converted charge is involved which 'prevents all morale checks ...etc.' ?

MANY THANKS for help on this. Sorry if it's covered in the rulebook/Forum, but I can't find it.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Resolving HTH when hit by converted charge

sleepysloo wrote:
Resolving combat in direction order, a follow up results in a converted charge into an enemy that has yet to resolve its HTH from a friend (next in direction order) that has just charged the same bound.
How /When is this next combat resolved?
If there are other multiple combats linked to it down the line (as can often happen with a daisy chain of overlapping units) How/When are they resolved since a converted charge is involved which 'prevents all morale checks ...etc.' ?

MANY THANKS for help on this. Sorry if it's covered in the rulebook/Forum, but I can't find it.


This could happen. In practice it rarely does (I recall only once, in 30+ years? maybe twice).

Why does it happen so rarely? Because you generally don't want to put your troops in positions whereby your opponent will be getting frequent converted charges.

Also, overlapping combat 'lines' that are fighting simultaneously are pretty rare too, given the usual placement of units on the battlefield.

Still, the rules as written do literally handle this.
"A converted charge is not declared and prevents all shooting at, charges on, waver tests, movement or charge responses by either body from the moment contact is made until the resulting combat is adjudicated next bound."

Thus, if a combat was about to be adjudicated in combat order, but has not yet, and that combat is involved in a converted charge, we don't "postpone" that combat.

However, the converted charge rules are otherwise followed. So, no shooting at either body involved in the converted charge (although other bodies not directly part of the converted charge could be shot at in support).

...and just follow what it says in 6.167...

Adjudicate the non-converted charge part of the combat in the combat direction...but continue to follow the converted charge rules.
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:43 am    Post subject:

So when we adjudicate the combat we ignore the converted charge BUT, in that case WHAT do we do with the later resulting combat casualties and CPF?
Since they will affect everything down the line, I'm really confused.
If the body hit by the converted charge has to recoil due to the other results 'down the direction order' what happens to the converted charging unit?
If the body hit by the converted charge is subject to a morale check from the combats down the line, does it take it?
If the body hit by the converted charge 'wins' its combat 'down the line and should follow up what happens?
And are the casualties and CPF included in the following bound's resolution of the converted charge combat?
Or not?
I'm surprised this situation is so rare. All that happened in my battle was that a line of Saxon spear, mutually charged a line of Viking close order infantry that included a unit of loose order berserkers. The charge moves were 'pro-rated, as per the rules, so the Berserkers contacted a unit of Saxon spears 20 paces ahead of the rest of the contact line. All units were offset by about 1 element. The Berserker combat was first in the 'direction of combat, so when they recoiled 40 paces, one overlapping element of the following up Saxon spear slammed into a (yet to fight) Viking close order Warrior unit whilst the rest of the Saxon unit echeloned further forward, maintaining contact with the recoiling Berserker unit.
I genuinely still don't know how to adjudicate the remaining combats.
Sorry! Can you guide me through it?
Cheers,
Bill Peck
'sleepysloo'
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 am    Post subject:

sleepysloo wrote:
So when we adjudicate the combat we ignore the converted charge BUT, in that case WHAT do we do with the later resulting combat casualties and CPF?
Since they will affect everything down the line, I'm really confused.
If the body hit by the converted charge has to recoil due to the other results 'down the direction order' what happens to the converted charging unit?
If the body hit by the converted charge is subject to a morale check from the combats down the line, does it take it?
If the body hit by the converted charge 'wins' its combat 'down the line and should follow up what happens?
And are the casualties and CPF included in the following bound's resolution of the converted charge combat?
Or not?
I'm surprised this situation is so rare. All that happened in my battle was that a line of Saxon spear, mutually charged a line of Viking close order infantry that included a unit of loose order berserkers. The charge moves were 'pro-rated, as per the rules, so the Berserkers contacted a unit of Saxon spears 20 paces ahead of the rest of the contact line. All units were offset by about 1 element. The Berserker combat was first in the 'direction of combat, so when they recoiled 40 paces, one overlapping element of the following up Saxon spear slammed into a (yet to fight) Viking close order Warrior unit whilst the rest of the Saxon unit echeloned further forward, maintaining contact with the recoiling Berserker unit.
I genuinely still don't know how to adjudicate the remaining combats.
Sorry! Can you guide me through it?
Cheers,
Bill Peck
'sleepysloo'


What do you do with the combat casualties and CPF? You apply them, and the resulting fatigue, as the converted charge rules do not say to NOT do that.

If the body hit by the converted charge has to recoil? It does not recoil, as recoil is movement, and being hit by a converted charge prevents movement. If it would suffer a consequence from not being able to recoil, it suffers that.

If the body hit by a converted charge has to waver...it does not (until waver tests after the converted charge combat is resolved next bound, however, waver tests it did not take are not...taken ever).

If a body hit by a converted charge has to follow up (or pursue, etc.) that is movement, which it does not do...it remains in place.

And are the casualties and CPF included in the following bound's resolution of the converted charge combat?
Or not? Not...they are taken care of as part of the combat in question.

Overlapping lines as you describe tend to be rather rare 'over here', or at least, folks have 'gaps' between units, usually...and work to avoid being subject to converted charges.
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject:

Thank you SO much! If they Break without a waver test, I'm guessing they do not rout (as routing is movement), and my guess is that the converted charge combat is played out the next bound as pursuers fighting enemy they are still in contact with (I'd begin by turning the now broken body 180 at the start of the next bound's combat to remind me not to fight back).
Do you think all that sounds correct? If so it might mean I'm beginning to get the hang of this!
😀
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject:

sleepysloo wrote:
Thank you SO much! If they Break without a waver test, I'm guessing they do not rout (as routing is movement), and my guess is that the converted charge combat is played out the next bound as pursuers fighting enemy they are still in contact with (I'd begin by turning the now broken body 180 at the start of the next bound's combat to remind me not to fight back).
Do you think all that sounds correct? If so it might mean I'm beginning to get the hang of this!
😀


Yes, if the ensuing unfinished combat in which the converted charge recipients are involved breaks them, then they are broken. However, as the converted charge prevents movement until after that combat is adjudicated on the following bound, do not turn the now routers around, they merely don't fight on the following bound.

Turning 180 is part of the 'rout move'.

Thus, technically speaking, they would count shielded (presumably) to the fighting on the following bound, even though not fighting themselves.

There is some ambiguity as to whether anyone wavers for that now broken unit.

Those wavers are for seeing a friendly non-LI (non-E class) unit in rout.

I would say that yes, the broken body, at step 8c of the current combat, is "in rout" and seen to be, causing wavers. However, it simply does not move.
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject:

Brilliant! Thank you. I've never understood why the term 'rules lawyer' is seen as an insult. I, for one, WANT someone who can guide me through the thickets of wargame rules!
Thanks again.
Bill 🙃
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject:

sleepysloo wrote:
Brilliant! Thank you. I've never understood why the term 'rules lawyer' is seen as an insult. I, for one, WANT someone who can guide me through the thickets of wargame rules!
Thanks again.
Bill 🙃


I think the pejorative form of 'rules lawyer' involved issues during gameplay. Perhaps you would not enjoy playing against me then Wink.

However, I can be useful in the answering of questions. Thank you for asking!
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sleepysloo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:04 pm    Post subject:

Wow! My query IS covered in the rules!!
Page 81 Black book, example 9-2:(CONVERTED CHARGE AND COMBAT SEQUENCE)
You were right about most if it. The final point we both got bits of.
Thank you! Sorry to have wasted your time.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:42 pm    Post subject:

sleepysloo wrote:
Wow! My query IS covered in the rules!!
Page 81 Black book, example 9-2:(CONVERTED CHARGE AND COMBAT SEQUENCE)
You were right about most if it. The final point we both got bits of.
Thank you! Sorry to have wasted your time.


No waste of time at all.

Rather a very interesting and thought provoking question.

Best wishes for future Warrior gaming.
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