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Elephant Theme at Historicon 2020
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Ewan McNay
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:43 am    Post subject:

I agree with Rob that on these weightings, Khmer is the obvious 'killer' choice at first glance. Other first-pass thoughts:

23 -- Alex Imperial. 1500 points. Viable. I don't see pike as being good in this theme though, so I would guess that successor armies are going to max peltasts. Does anyone get Reg B peltasts?

24 -- Asiatic Early Successor. 1600 points

25 -- Lysimachid. 1680 points

27 -- Early Seleucid. 1500 points. I don't know that I would take a penalty to play this or Alex. Alex himself is a nice freebie of course.

34 -- Later Carthaginian. 1600 points. Definitely a strong possibility, lots of good anti-elephant infantry, and not much cav around to be afraid of. I might consider this. The elephants suck though.

35 -- Bactrian Greek. 1760 points

36 -- Numidian. 1920 points. Yikes. That's a lot.

10 -- Marian Roman. 1760 points. Don't have any knowledge or opinions on this list a priori.

8 -- Ghaznavid. 1500 points. I think that might just have made this list nonviable; it struggles to come in at 1600 as it is.

5 -- Early Vietnamese. 1760 points. This would be a lot of fun and give you plenty of time for drinking.

7 -- Early Indian. 1680 points. I think this will be a challenge. Close formation foot bow might just pull it off if no-one brings successor pike though.

18 -- Burmese. 1680 points. No. Take Khmer instead.

20 -- Champa. 1680 points. Only if you are Jake Kovel.

26 -- Khmer. 1600 points. An A+ army to begin with.

31 -- Medieval Vietnamese. 1680 points. Another list I have no idea what is on it yet.

36 -- Delhi/Lodi Sultanate. 1600 points. Possible. Dan Woyke will run it well.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:09 am    Post subject:

Ewan McNay wrote:
I agree with Rob that on these weightings, Khmer is the obvious 'killer' choice at first glance. Other first-pass thoughts:

23 -- Alex Imperial. 1500 points. Viable. I don't see pike as being good in this theme though, so I would guess that successor armies are going to max peltasts. Does anyone get Reg B peltasts?

24 -- Asiatic Early Successor. 1600 points

25 -- Lysimachid. 1680 points

27 -- Early Seleucid. 1500 points. I don't know that I would take a penalty to play this or Alex. Alex himself is a nice freebie of course.

34 -- Later Carthaginian. 1600 points. Definitely a strong possibility, lots of good anti-elephant infantry, and not much cav around to be afraid of. I might consider this. The elephants suck though.

35 -- Bactrian Greek. 1760 points

36 -- Numidian. 1920 points. Yikes. That's a lot.

10 -- Marian Roman. 1760 points. Don't have any knowledge or opinions on this list a priori.

8 -- Ghaznavid. 1500 points. I think that might just have made this list nonviable; it struggles to come in at 1600 as it is.

5 -- Early Vietnamese. 1760 points. This would be a lot of fun and give you plenty of time for drinking.

7 -- Early Indian. 1680 points. I think this will be a challenge. Close formation foot bow might just pull it off if no-one brings successor pike though.

18 -- Burmese. 1680 points. No. Take Khmer instead.

20 -- Champa. 1680 points. Only if you are Jake Kovel.

26 -- Khmer. 1600 points. An A+ army to begin with.

31 -- Medieval Vietnamese. 1680 points. Another list I have no idea what is on it yet.

36 -- Delhi/Lodi Sultanate. 1600 points. Possible. Dan Woyke will run it well.

Alex Imperial : You have to take 8 elephants. So, you have to take the Indian Sub. So, you can't have the Experimental Pike (thus no discount or shootiness). No, there are no Reg B Peltasts.

Asiatic Early Successor : Your elephants all have to be Eudamos, Irr C JLS/JLS. Not great. No flashy Alexander stuff...but 100 more points. Pike are not great against elephants as they start out losing to pike elephants and a + die roll for any others finds the pike recoiling disordered. Elephants suffer little consequence with pike at a factor of 1. Are Peltasts actually good? Likely only if there's a bunch of terrain. I don't want to take elephant charges in the open with them.

Lysimachid at 1680 : This is the Successor army I'd say someone should run. 180 more points than Alex or Seleucus. Minimize the pike, although sadly you have to take 16E. You have to take the Seleucid Ally. Barbarian rules Irr B LMI JLS,Sh are available as anti-elephant.

Early Seleucid at 1500 : Nope. Skip it. Take Lysimachid.

Later Carthaginian at 1600 : There's something here. The elephants are junk, but the other options are solid including Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh and Irr A/C such. Maybe it just gets run over by Numidians, though.

Bacterial Greek at 1760 : That's a solid amount of points. The infantry are unremarkable and mostly don't have to be taken. The elephants are junk at Irr C JLS crew (you have to take the Indians, but thankfully no general). I thought the Cav could be Elephant proof...but no...so...this is actually junk.

Numidian on 1920 : Yes, Ewan, that is a lot of points. Wall to wall Irr C/D LMI JLS,Sh with Barbarian rules...junk Elephants. What may happen to this army is that it gets 2/3 to 3/4 of its frontage pinned while the opponent concentrates combined arms to kill the remainder.

Marian Roman at 1760 : You must take the Numidian ally and run the other 2 elephants (not normally possible). Those are junk elephants...but the Roman foot have their special rules galore. They fight most non-elephant things well (and we won't be seeing any SHC/HK/EHK/SHK). Against elephants it's a mixed bag...the edge is with elephants. Someone will run this.

Ghaznavid : The 'best' elephants, in a sense, but an expensive army. Oh, and I lied earlier, the Reg B Peltasts are on this list...sort of. They're just, well, expensive. I don't think 1500 is enough here.

Early Vietnamese : Don't make me look at the list. Just run Khmer. 1760 points is at least interesting. However, you're under some significant constraints. You must run Late and you must take the Champa Ally (or you can't get to 8 elephants). The Vietnamese elephants are absolute junk that you must keep away from the enemy. You don't get full Barbarian Rules for your Irr LMI...so...just run Numidian if this was what you wanted to do.

Early Indian : 1600 points, so no extras. This list is...awkward. Inefficient. Longbow is not the best weapon against enemy elephants. The close foot are vulnerable to enemy infantry assault. Still, the elephants are all Irr B and numerous...but...just run Khmer, right?

Burmese : A poor list...even on 1680...and those elephants, while they dominate all other elephants given the shooting and crew, are so expensive. Still, if you could only get these elephants into the enemy's...you'd earn some routs pretty quick. However, note that Khmer has a Burmese Ally!

Champa : More non-Barbarian Irr LMI...which are the key to victory should there be any. Hauser will probably run this list given the two 6 crew stone throwers (what?). As the LMI can be LHI and have Irr A elements...you could just...roll some dice.

Khmer on 1600 : A very solid choice with a variety of flexible options...if...in any individual case, unexciting. If you want to use Burmese elephants, this is the list to do so on.

Medieval Vietnamese on 1680 : Again the Champa Ally is required to get to 8 elephants. The elephants are mediocre. Most of the infantry are easily killed junk. One of the worst lists.

Delhi/Lodi Sultanate : 1600, the difficulty here being the high relative cost of units. The elephants match up well against other such apart from Burmese with 3 bow crew Irr B. Elephant proof LC and lancers are available. Some funky if not great infantry choices are available. Not sure there's enough.


Last edited by Frank Gilson on Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:52 pm    Post subject:

Seems maybe that Khmer should be at 1580 or lower if it is the list to be all lists........

As stated earlier I volunteer to umpire the theme and play in the even if there is an odd number or such.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:19 pm    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Seems maybe that Khmer should be at 1580 or lower if it is the list to be all lists........

As stated earlier I volunteer to umpire the theme and play in the even if there is an odd number or such.

Todd


It's possible the points should be rebalanced in light of additional thinking.

Note, however, that Khmer, apart from the Burmese Ally, has its own difficulties...it hits nothing hard, has relatively few scouting points (unless you take an unreasonable amount of light infantry), and its elephants have only the detachment gimmick for combat worthiness...no pike, no multiple crew.

I'd hate to be Khmer and have to face wide/deep impetuous Numidians.

Frank
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:35 pm    Post subject: Numidians

Do not forget, also : "JLS armed cav fight 1.5 ranks in HTH combat versus any foot when charging, counter charging and pursuing."

This makes Numidian a touch better...on top of the 1920 points.

Here's a sample list:
CinC 2E Irr B HC JLS,Sh 145
Sub similar 95
7E Irr C LC JLS,Sh 109
7E Irr B LC JLS,Sh 123
4x2 Irr C El JLS/JLS 420
4x12E Irr D(1 C) LMI JLS,Sh 400
2x4E Irr C LI S,Sh/B 90
Roman Ally 2E Reg B HC JLS,Sh 130
4x4E Reg C HI HTW,Sh 404 = 1916
19 units, 3 cmds, 52 scouting

Given all the points...I use the Roman Ally given the excellent legions. Elephants here are used as supports for infantry against the inevitable mounted assaults.
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:51 pm    Post subject:

If you're thinking of playing something like Burmese elephants and don't have Burmese elephants, then you're not playing Burmese elephants.

I don't mind a certain amount of generic-ness in this. For example, if you want to play Carthage and use Seleucid elephants, that'll work. Hopefully you get the idea.

But if you plop Khmer elephants on the table and say "these are Burmese", then don't bother. Or if you want to play a South Asian list and use Hellenistic elephants, again, don't bother, I won't allow it.

Do yourself and me a favor and if you have a specific question about what I'll allow or not, EMAIL ME IN ADVANCE!!!!

DO NOT POP THIS ON ME AT THE CONVENTION.

scott

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Nicholas Rowe
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject:

Frank Gilson wrote:
Ghaznavid : The 'best' elephants, in a sense, but an expensive army. Oh, and I lied earlier, the Reg B Peltasts are on this list...sort of. They're just, well, expensive. I don't think 1500 is enough here.

I will be taking you up on this. You won't get to see those alluring super-expensive Dailami in my army, though.
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