Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/11/2004 19:28:49 Central Daylight Time,
davidsmith@... writes:

2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).



hands down this is what I would choose, and probably would be doing myself
if I didn't already have a 25mm plan through 2006. great figs are available,
you can do a LOT with the modeling of it given the history of that area and I
believe it can be made competitive.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Dave Smith]

Gents;

With my Imperial Romans well on the way, along with the beginnings
of an Early German foe, I would like to start planning for a
dedicated Warrior army in 25mm for 2005. For this go-around, I
would like to do the antithesis of an Imperial Roman army, to wit,
Irregular, and more mounted oriented, perhaps. I would like to ask
this august body to help me with my decision, and I'll chronicle the
progress from my figure decision and purchase to the tabletop on my
website (http://www.miniwars.com).

I need to share with you my criteria for choosing an army.

#1. I need to really be interested in the history.
#2. There has to be some really cool-looking figures available
(25mm).
#3. I would like for it to be somewhat competitive (and here is
where it gets tricky, since I am new to Warrior). I know this will
be rather subjective since I know a Medieval Spanish army will be
lights out with Jon Cleaves, but will be a dog for me. ; )

So, I've put together a little list of some armies that fit into
categories 1 and 2, but need your help with #3.

Not in any order of preference:

1. Aztec (using Foundry and or Castaway Arts).
2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).
3. Later Byzantine (using Essex/Gripping Beast).
4. Early Crusader (using Perrys).
5. Scots Isles and Highlands (Old Glory/Foundry/Crusader)

I would also be open to other suggestions, so this list is not all
inclusive. If possible, I would like to read about the
logic/tactics/rationale that went into your selection.

Dave

[Greg Regets]

I like the Later Byzantine choice also, providing you go VERY late,
meaning Paleologian (SP?).

It's one of those armies that builds better than it looks on the army
list. Lots of that in Warrior ... credit to Mr. Holder.

g


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 19:28:49 Central Daylight Time,
> davidsmith@k... writes:
>
> 2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).
>
>
>
> hands down this is what I would choose, and probably would be doing
myself
> if I didn't already have a 25mm plan through 2006. great figs are
available,
> you can do a LOT with the modeling of it given the history of that
area and I
> believe it can be made competitive.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave
I would through in Samurai Army list. It gives you the History that you are
looking the cool figs are the Perry figs and also there are some good figs
put out by AEG, the folks that make the Legend of the Five Rings tabletop
game. The unknow factor in relationship to warrior is how the list will
preform in tournaments since it could containt new list requirements and
special actions. I suggest in reading anything you can get by Stephen
J.Turnbull for historical facts. In my opinion he is the best when it comes
to Samurai history.


>From: "David Smith" <davidsmith@...>
>Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [WarriorRules] Warrior Project for '05
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:17:43 -0000
>
>Gents;
>
>With my Imperial Romans well on the way, along with the beginnings
>of an Early German foe, I would like to start planning for a
>dedicated Warrior army in 25mm for 2005. For this go-around, I
>would like to do the antithesis of an Imperial Roman army, to wit,
>Irregular, and more mounted oriented, perhaps. I would like to ask
>this august body to help me with my decision, and I'll chronicle the
>progress from my figure decision and purchase to the tabletop on my
>website (http://www.miniwars.com).
>
>I need to share with you my criteria for choosing an army.
>
>#1. I need to really be interested in the history.
>#2. There has to be some really cool-looking figures available
>(25mm).
>#3. I would like for it to be somewhat competitive (and here is
>where it gets tricky, since I am new to Warrior). I know this will
>be rather subjective since I know a Medieval Spanish army will be
>lights out with Jon Cleaves, but will be a dog for me. ; )
>
>So, I've put together a little list of some armies that fit into
>categories 1 and 2, but need your help with #3.
>
>Not in any order of preference:
>
>1. Aztec (using Foundry and or Castaway Arts).
>2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).
>3. Later Byzantine (using Essex/Gripping Beast).
>4. Early Crusader (using Perrys).
>5. Scots Isles and Highlands (Old Glory/Foundry/Crusader)
>
>I would also be open to other suggestions, so this list is not all
>inclusive. If possible, I would like to read about the
>logic/tactics/rationale that went into your selection.
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

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Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and
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[Dave Smith]

Hmmm...interesting. This was actually the one I was leaning toward
for a variety of reasons. Would you build the Vlastilini as a later
western-influenced variant (EHK, L, Sh) or, earlier with the
Byzantine influence (EHC, L, B, Sh), [9 points less per element.]?



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 19:28:49 Central Daylight Time,
> davidsmith@k... writes:
>
> 2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).
>
>
>
> hands down this is what I would choose, and probably would be
doing myself
> if I didn't already have a 25mm plan through 2006. great figs
are available,
> you can do a LOT with the modeling of it given the history of
that area and I
> believe it can be made competitive.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Hmmm...interesting. This was actually the one I was leaning toward
for a variety of reasons. Would you build the Vlastilini as a later
western-influenced variant (EHK, L, Sh) or, earlier with the
Byzantine influence (EHC, L, B, Sh), [9 points less per element.]?>>

I'd build it the way I could have a vampire for a CINC...lol

Seriously, I do not have my feudal warrior here at work, but I would be happy to
write you up a list just to show you a first cut at what i would do - if you'd
like...

J

[Dave Smith]

That would be greatly appreciated. However, are you thinking more
like a Moldavian/Wallachian army, rather than the Serbian? Just
curious since you mentioned the Drac CinC - I've thought about that
one too, by the way! Also, the Serbian variant I'm thinking is in
the Holy Warrior book.


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Hmmm...interesting. This was actually the one I was leaning
toward
> for a variety of reasons. Would you build the Vlastilini as a
later
> western-influenced variant (EHK, L, Sh) or, earlier with the
> Byzantine influence (EHC, L, B, Sh), [9 points less per element.]?
>>
>
> I'd build it the way I could have a vampire for a CINC...lol
>
> Seriously, I do not have my feudal warrior here at work, but I
would be happy to write you up a list just to show you a first cut
at what i would do - if you'd like...
>
> J

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:17:43 -0000
> From: "David Smith" <davidsmith@...>
> Subject: Warrior Project for '05
>
> Gents;
>
> With my Imperial Romans well on the way, along with the beginnings
> of an Early German foe, I would like to start planning for a
> dedicated Warrior army in 25mm for 2005. For this go-around, I
> would like to do the antithesis of an Imperial Roman army, to wit,
> Irregular, and more mounted oriented, perhaps. I would like to ask
> this august body to help me with my decision, and I'll chronicle the
> progress from my figure decision and purchase to the tabletop on my
> website (http://www.miniwars.com).
>
> I need to share with you my criteria for choosing an army.
>
> #1. I need to really be interested in the history.
> #2. There has to be some really cool-looking figures available
> (25mm).
> #3. I would like for it to be somewhat competitive (and here is
> where it gets tricky, since I am new to Warrior). I know this will
> be rather subjective since I know a Medieval Spanish army will be
> lights out with Jon Cleaves, but will be a dog for me. ; )
>
> So, I've put together a little list of some armies that fit into
> categories 1 and 2, but need your help with #3.
>
> Not in any order of preference:
>
> 1. Aztec (using Foundry and or Castaway Arts).
> 2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).
> 3. Later Byzantine (using Essex/Gripping Beast).
> 4. Early Crusader (using Perrys).
> 5. Scots Isles and Highlands (Old Glory/Foundry/Crusader)
>
> I would also be open to other suggestions, so this list is not all
> inclusive. If possible, I would like to read about the
> logic/tactics/rationale that went into your selection.
>
> Dave
>

Aztec:

Not my area of historical interest, but a well-painted Aztec army is an
absolutely gorgeous sight. The feathers, the obsidian, the jaguar pelts....
really cool stuff if done right.

Certainly Aztecs is a playable army. It's a bit one-dimensional, but still very
tough. In WRG 7th you could pretty much count on at least one Aztec entry in
every major tournament. Under Warrior Aztecs have been less popular. Not sure
why; the list is, if anything, more competitive. Specifically the advantages
are this:
- puts out a lot of shooting while being relatively impervious to shooting;
Aztecs is the army that could have crunched Derek's Silla Koreans last year,
and would have been a very tough matchup for his Khmer this year;
- high morale throughout, meaning you can't break one key unit and wait for the
cascading waver tests; you really have to break the army one unit at a time;
- can deal with any terrain; high enough morale to be in the open, but top notch
loose order foot makes it tough in brush, woods, etc.

Disadvantages are the lack of mounted (though this is somewhat alleviated
depending on how you take the Warrior list), and less than ideal matchups in
hand to hand against heavily armored mounted (SHK, EHK, SHC). The latter
problem is somewhat alleviated by the density of shooting.

Serbian Empire:

I _love_ this period of history: full of colorful characters and some key
battles. Kosovo is one of those critical battles that really could have changed
history depending on the outcome, and it's a battle you hear very little about.

And any knight army is a blast to paint up, and can look great if done well.
Serbians are very unusual in following a Western European system of feudal
organization and associated heraldry, but being an Eastern Orthodox kingdom.
That means their banners and shield patterns are unlike any other knight army.

In terms of playability, this is a simple army, but still a competitive one. You
have a lot of cheap light troops that can form a screen, some decent knights,
and a smattering of loose order foot that is above average. None of this is
overwhelming, but it's balanced, and a good player can do well with this. My
best finish in the NICT was playing Serbians.

Later Byzantine:

This is my personal favorite. I've studied this army for years, and played it in
tournaments for 15 years now. I played it even when you had to take it as
Theodoran Byzantine, with its required, absolutely useless, and utterly
fictional 24 figures of Varangians: Reg A HI 2HCW,Sh.

There's an excellent book by David Derekson call "The Crescent and the Cross"
that details the twilight of the Byzantine Empire, focusing on the siege of
Constantinople. The book does an excellent job of conveying the tragic sense of
the twilight of one of humanity's great empires, while also showing how near a
thing it was: the siege could well have been won by the Byzantines on several
different occaisions.

Personally I like playing the army of Manuel II Paleologous. He was the last
great soldier/scholar the Byzantines had, and struck up a curious friendship
with Marshal Boucicault after the French/Hungarian defeat at Nicopolis. We
forget that the Ottoman Empire was on the verge of conquering all of Eastern
Europe -- they were a days' march from Venice at one point -- when, seemingly
out of the blue, their army was annhilated by Timur and his Mongols at the
Battle of Ankara. The subsequent power vacuum is what Manuel and Boucicault
attempted to exploit, campaigning together over two years. Alas, it was not to
be, but there is great chivalry and heroism in one of history's poignant
moments of lost opportunity.

And in terms of playability, the army is as good as it gets. This really is one
of Warrior's "cadillac" army lists. You get a mix of regulars and irregulars.
You get quality light troops (shielded with bow) in abundance. You get a mix of
knights, anything from EHK up to Irr A SHK. And you get a ton of shooters; I
typically play a variant that includes about 120 figures armed with bow. If
you're willing to forgo the SHK you can pick up a Catalan ally instead, and
bring along a contingent of Almughuvars. Nothing says "no" to elephants like a
bunch of "Moogs" mixed in with 32 figures of Reg C LMI JLS,B,Sh.

It's not an easy army to play. The skirmisher game with all of those light
troops is fairly intricate, and must be played well. And knights aren't
actually all that easy to play. They basically get one good charge, and you
have to know when to pull the trigger on them. You have something that can
match up against just about anyone, but the flip side is you have something
that's vulnerable to just about anyone. Maneuvering to get the matchups you
want takes practice.

Still, overall this is just an awesome army. Colorful, heroic, and top of the
line in terms of competitiveness.

Early Crusader:

I hope you specifically mean First Crusade. That's a viable list if you take all
the Irr A Pilgrims; Early Crusader is not. And the First Crusade is a wonderful
historical tale; I can't think of another medieval army that fought in seven
major field battles, much less won them all.

This period is pre-heraldic, so the cavalry aren't quite as colorful as they
become later on. These guys still look pretty much like William's Normans. But
the pilgrims are a blast to paint up and a blast to play.

Overall I'd rate this army as brittle, but competitive. You have some required
foot that isn't very good, but you have enough shielded light infantry that you
should be able to screen your vulnerabilities. The army is almost entirely
irregular (except for the Byzantine light cav), so it doesn't maneuver very
well. Ultimately it will succeed or fail on the basis of impetuous charges by
some combination of Irr A cav and Irr A foot. Neither is particularly tough --
the cav can be at most HK and the foot at most LMI -- but they are numerous,
and fierce. Unfortunately your line troops are not very high morale, which
means that a poor result with your impetuous As can result in a rout that a lot
of poor morale troops will test for. You can find your whole army heading home
in a hurry. Still, there are plenty of times when you're going to roll up and
just steamroll the guy you're fighting.

No low scoring games with this army; overall, that's probably a good thing.

Scots Isles and Highlanders:

I'm half Scottish, my ancestors having been sent over to the colonies as
punishment for stealing English sheep (MacBride and MacAphie are the two clans
from which I'm descended). So I love the history of this period. For an
entertaining intro to the history, I highly recommend Dorothy Dunnett's novel
"King Hereafter".

And Scots make as colorful an army as you'll get, with all those kilts and those
big swords. Certainly beyond my skill as a painter, but a gorgeous sight to see
when done well.

Sadly, I just don't think the army is playable. The impetuous foot doesn't hit
hard enough, given that it's really all you've got. Some troops can be
up-armored to make them more durable, some can be Irr A to make them hit
harder, some can get a combination of weapons, both 2HCW and JLS. The problem
is you can't get _all_ of these things together in a way that gives you the
overwhelming shock power you need. You have little to fight cavalry armies
with. You're vulnerable to dense shooting. Against regular foot armies (Romans,
etc.) you're really counting on some up die rolls to win. Same against
elephants.

If you want to play an army of this style, then hands down the best one in terms
of competitiveness is Boran Norse Irish. That can be a _very_ tough army if
played well. But I don't know if it holds any historical interest for you at
all.

Anyway, I hope some of this information is helpful. We'll all be interested to
see what you decide on and how. And I love the photos on your website; the
quality of painting is unbelievable. You'll do justice to one of these armies,
I'm sure.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

That would be greatly appreciated. However, are you thinking more
like a Moldavian/Wallachian army, rather than the Serbian? Just
curious since you mentioned the Drac CinC - I've thought about that
one too, by the way! Also, the Serbian variant I'm thinking is in
the Holy Warrior book.>>

All my list books are at home. I looked at this list recently and it made the
cut to be something I would explore in the future. It's on hold for me because
I want to take a break from knight armies after this past year. But I will look
at lists for you from both the cool history perspective as well as competition.

J

[Dave Smith]

Mark Stone wrote:
**Mark;

You are truly an asset to this list, as others have said. I
appreciate this information. Some comments below identified by **.


Aztec:

Not my area of historical interest, but a well-painted Aztec army is
an absolutely gorgeous sight. The feathers, the obsidian, the jaguar
pelts....really cool stuff if done right.

**The painting possiblities are really the biggest attraction for me
in doing an Aztec army. I remember in 6th and 7th, it was also
pretty competitive, as you have pointed out.



Serbian Empire:

I _love_ this period of history: full of colorful characters and
some key battles. Kosovo is one of those critical battles that
really could have changed history depending on the outcome, and it's
a battle you hear very little about.


**Given the tumultous situation that is existent there currently, I
think you can trace the roots of this acrimony to that era and those
battles. I like the blend of eastern and western influences, and
the Old Glory range is pretty neat.


Later Byzantine:

There's an excellent book by David Derekson call "The Crescent and
the Cross" that details the twilight of the Byzantine Empire,
focusing on the siege of Constantinople. The book does an excellent
job of conveying the tragic sense of the twilight of one of
humanity's great empires, while also showing how near a thing it
was: the siege could well have been won by the Byzantines on several
different occaisions.


**In my 'defense department' library, I have the 'Byzantium' trilogy
by Norwich, Byzantium and its Army, by Treadgold, 'Maurice's
Strategikon', by Dennis, and all the Osprey books on Byzantium.
Collectively, they have peaked my interest in this period, and I
like the same easter/western dynamics that I mentioned for the Serbs.

Early Crusader:

I hope you specifically mean First Crusade.


**Yes, that's what I meant. The new Perry line is specifically
designed for First Crusade.

That's a viable list if you take all the Irr A Pilgrims; Early
Crusader is not. And the First Crusade is a wonderful
historical tale; I can't think of another medieval army that fought
in seven major field battles, much less won them all.

**My favorite read is 'The First Crusade' by Runciman.

Scots Isles and Highlanders:

Sadly, I just don't think the army is playable.


**My other 'Scottish' option was _King David Scots_, only for the
real goofy reason of liking the name! ; )

of competitiveness is Boran Norse Irish.


**Waaaay back in the early 80's when 6th Ed. had just been
introduced, we had a very unusual member at the local gaming club
who fielded Norse Irish. He was a little abrasive, and he painted
all of the Norse-Irish shields with a _green 4-leaf clover_ emblem...

That can be a _very_ tough army if
played well. But I don't know if it holds any historical interest
for you at all.


**Yeah, it does-I'll check it out.


Anyway, I hope some of this information is helpful. We'll all be
interested to see what you decide on and how. And I love the photos
on your website; the quality of painting is unbelievable. You'll do
justice to one of these armies, I'm sure.


**Thanks for the kind words.

Dave

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "David Smith" <davidsmith@k...>
wrote:
> **My favorite read is 'The First Crusade' by Runciman.

As one who can never play an army without reading a corresponding
book - I read Runciman (and the Kingdom of Jerusalem as well) but
liked very much also France's "Victory in the East" which you might
give a try if you decide to go to work painting this army.

[Kelly Wilkinson]

David,

Instead of choosing Serbians, I would consider using the Warrior list,
Wallachians/Moldavians. I've had considerable success with this army verses all
comers and I'd like to remind you that it won the 15mm open at historicon. This
is not to say that it's the army that wins games more so than the player but it
does seem to have the tools available to give an able commander such as yourself
more victories than not.

kelly
PS Besides, you get the added bonus of having Vlad "The Impaler" as your Cinc.
:)

David Smith <davidsmith@...> wrote:
Gents;

With my Imperial Romans well on the way, along with the beginnings
of an Early German foe, I would like to start planning for a
dedicated Warrior army in 25mm for 2005. For this go-around, I
would like to do the antithesis of an Imperial Roman army, to wit,
Irregular, and more mounted oriented, perhaps. I would like to ask
this august body to help me with my decision, and I'll chronicle the
progress from my figure decision and purchase to the tabletop on my
website (http://www.miniwars.com).

I need to share with you my criteria for choosing an army.

#1. I need to really be interested in the history.
#2. There has to be some really cool-looking figures available
(25mm).
#3. I would like for it to be somewhat competitive (and here is
where it gets tricky, since I am new to Warrior). I know this will
be rather subjective since I know a Medieval Spanish army will be
lights out with Jon Cleaves, but will be a dog for me. ; )

So, I've put together a little list of some armies that fit into
categories 1 and 2, but need your help with #3.

Not in any order of preference:

1. Aztec (using Foundry and or Castaway Arts).
2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).
3. Later Byzantine (using Essex/Gripping Beast).
4. Early Crusader (using Perrys).
5. Scots Isles and Highlands (Old Glory/Foundry/Crusader)

I would also be open to other suggestions, so this list is not all
inclusive. If possible, I would like to read about the
logic/tactics/rationale that went into your selection.

Dave


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Moogs are good. And you can get lots of them as an ally in this list. But the
ally of choice for me is the French with their 1/2 Irg A SHK. What's not to like
about an army with some punch?

kelly

Greg Regets <greg.regets@...> wrote:
I like the Later Byzantine choice also, providing you go VERY late,
meaning Paleologian (SP?).

It's one of those armies that builds better than it looks on the army
list. Lots of that in Warrior ... credit to Mr. Holder.

g


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 19:28:49 Central Daylight Time,
> davidsmith@k... writes:
>
> 2. Serbian Empire (using Old Glory 'Vlad the Impaler' range).
>
>
>
> hands down this is what I would choose, and probably would be doing
myself
> if I didn't already have a 25mm plan through 2006. great figs are
available,
> you can do a LOT with the modeling of it given the history of that
area and I
> believe it can be made competitive.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Doug]

>Dave
>I would through in Samurai Army list. It gives you the History that you are
>looking the cool figs are the Perry figs and also there are some good figs
>put out by AEG, the folks that make the Legend of the Five Rings tabletop
>game.

Yup. Thats the army I've got painted and am waiting to base when the
Warrior list come out.
--

Doug
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[Dave Smith]

"S Blevins" <sble172462@m...> wrote:
Dave
I would through in Samurai Army list. It gives you the History that
you are looking the cool figs are the Perry figs and also there are
some good figs put out by AEG <snip>


Hi Sean;

The Perry Samurai figures are indeed tempting. I just assumed that
the Age of Wars (Gempi?) was a little later than what was
needed...more suitable for the Renaissance period. Are the Samurai
somewhat competitive? I remember in 6th they were tough, but deemed
a little too much Velveeta....if you get my drift.

Dave