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Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott
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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


<< Wink He and I are actually two of Scott's multiple personalities. That's
why Scott has so little time for the forum himself...>>

now that is funny...lol

Scott's in Italy. But the normal reason for him not being on the forum is that
he is actually the less patient one of the two of us... which speaks volumes...
:)

Derek, I am an intelligence analyst and instructor for the Army. I retired last
year as a lieutenant colonel and am now a government civilian. When I am not on
the road or teaching I do internet-based research (classified and unclassified)
and courseware development. It keeps me in front of a computer for 8 hours a
day. I could not possibly write and search for that period of time straight, so
next to whatever document/briefing/course/site I am working on is an aol window.
I intersperse what I am writing with email answering to keep from going mad
(unless it is football season when I also take breaks by monday-morning
quarterbacking with the boys upstairs...). The alternative - arriving home to
300 mails and dealing with them at night - just would not work anyway.

and yes, despite my lack of formal training I can type fast enough to get
everything done during the day and still banter with you lads...

As far as openings..lol... see www.usajobs.opm.gov but I warned you - paint
peeling is more exciting....

Jon

darnd022263@... wrote:

> Jon
>
> What do you do for a living? I am mainly interested because of the shear
> number of emails and time you spend on the forum. Also is there an opening?
>
> Derek
>




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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


<< UK comps have a list-checker, who sees all lists beforehand and checks
them for legality. I think that's a wonderful idea. >>

I know that Scott does this for the NICT. I don't think we have anyone doing it
for other Lancaster events, but I do think this is a good idea and obviously
that person is not me. I am just not sure who else it would be if Scott is too
busy. I will talk to Scott about it.

J



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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


Best post of the month nominations are now open. I choose the one below....lol

-----Original Message-----
From: darnd022263@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:19:30 EDT
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott



I nominate Ewan as list checker. That way he can't play. :)

Derek


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


Greetings Ewan,
As an tournament organizer in TOG, and other games, I used to ask for
folks to send me list prior to the convention. Unless I gave extra
points and wasnt playing, it was like being a credit dentist to get
folks to send them in. Simply put we as gamers are a bit to
competetive and look to get any edge we can, and giving up list
composition is like selling out our troops in advance. I will say that
given the incentive of extra points folks become willing to send those
lists in, but that is because they gain an advantage over those who
dont. The average was 2.5% bump in points.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...> wrote:
>
>
> JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> > 1. I am here to go with what the player's want. I am a Warrior
fanatic,
> > but I am not a paying customer - you guys get to say. But this
also means that
> > you buy into having a tourney being played under conditions directly
> > contrary to something you heard me say or had clarified. Its the
price of doing
> > business this way. The players seem willing to accept that and I
am cool with
> > that. But I would prefer my inbox did not fill with complaints
about it after
> > the fact. Send me what you thought got 'ruled wrong' and I will
clarify it.
>
> This already happens (i.e. is the status quo). Having Scott pipe up
when
> you say stuff that is directly contrary to his understanding - e.g.
that
> charge path wheel stuff - would help, too, of course. And he has
too much
> free time as it is Wink.
>
> > 2. Please send me and Scott any rules issues you think might come
up with
> > an army you are intending to play in advance. Especially in
advance of a
> > major event. I can't tell you how much that has helped in the
past and would
> > have helped this past weekend.
>
> To Scott - maybe. I've done so in the past (e.g. scythed chariots). I
> some cases, though, I can imagine a situation where the rules
clearly say
> 'A' and I am reasonably sure that Scott will feel forced to rule
that way
> as long as he's not warned in advance and has the chance to tell me
otherwise.
>
> To you, if you're playing: no chance. Would I have wanted you - and
only
> you - to have had a chance to work out how to combat camel obstacles
> before you saw them? Naah. Sorry.
>
> Evil Ewan
>
> p.s. John - thanks for the note of support. Ditto to Terry.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


Greetings Jon,
I dont think that Ewan thinks you are going to cheat or a lyin' SOB
its more a matter of suprise. It's the suprise that really throws
opposing generals. Once you have that information you cant unring
that bell. A trick what ever it is normaly is only effective once or
twice before folks learn how to deal with it or to avoid it.

>
> I think it is terrible that you live in a world where people -
fellow gamers in this case - are presumed liars and cheats before
cause is shown. I do not and I will not act that way. I don't care
what tournament bridge directors do. I will go on presuming my fellow
players act with integrity until they show otherwise.

Isnt this incumbant on the other general to do his homework on what my
list can field? or after the first game to wander over an glance at
the various armies?

> Oh, and the new 14.0 will require a player to declare in advance
what list rules and strategems his army can employ/possess. This will
give the opponent the chance to look into how they work before the
game starts.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


Greetings Jon,
That could be farmed out to anyone who knows the lists and inst going
to the Lancaster events, AND is someone you folks trust. Im a bit new
to Warrior to be volunteering, though I have done it in other games.

> << UK comps have a list-checker, who sees all lists beforehand and
checks
> them for legality. I think that's a wonderful idea. >>
>
> I know that Scott does this for the NICT. I don't think we have
anyone doing it for other Lancaster events, but I do think this is a
good idea and obviously that person is not me. I am just not sure who
else it would be if Scott is too busy. I will talk to Scott about it.
>
> J
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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John Murphy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


Taking this thought too seriously, as I know this was meant as light
note, but the crux of the problem is exactly _not_ solved by this.
As long as the rules are interpreted "psychically" or by "intent"
and not by what is written on the page or in the clarifications for
all to see...

_that_ is an issue.

In the actual event it sounds like everythiong worked out. The ump
made the ruling, the author noted something that required
clarifiaction. There should really be no problem with any of that
and everything functioned just like it should. Other than ruffled
feathers it doesn't sound like the actual way things happened is an
issue for anyone. Even Jon, except that he knows now that the
clarifications and new rulebook need something else added.

The thing that made me concerned was the statement online here that
there would possibly be some teaming arrangement made between ump
and author whereby the author overruled the ump, or was consulted by
the ump, based on unpublished information that no other player has
access to. And further if Jon was to ump I would hope he would have
ruled against himself in this instance based on what is on the
printed page overruling what is in his head.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "wacoddignton" <nidboy@v...>
wrote:
> But I for one am all for the Psychic powers. Solves the problem
> nicely
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
> <jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> > If there were some other way to do this where he and Scott
> have telepathic powers. . .

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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


Terry

I would really prefer to bow out of this discussion overall. But I didn't want
it to see like I was blowing you off, either. I fully support the idea of
'tricks' of maneuver - novel tactics, whatever. Kudos to whomever thinks of
them and gains advantage through them.

My opinion on rules-based tricks is not favorable, so better probably not to go
there. I will say this - we do not expect every player to have every list or
list rule memorized. I don't think that's right to ask, especially in a game
such as ours. The feedback I have received on this issue supports this.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Dix <notalent@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:12:43 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott




Greetings Jon,
I dont think that Ewan thinks you are going to cheat or a lyin' SOB
its more a matter of suprise. It's the suprise that really throws
opposing generals. Once you have that information you cant unring
that bell. A trick what ever it is normaly is only effective once or
twice before folks learn how to deal with it or to avoid it.

>
> I think it is terrible that you live in a world where people -
fellow gamers in this case - are presumed liars and cheats before
cause is shown. I do not and I will not act that way. I don't care
what tournament bridge directors do. I will go on presuming my fellow
players act with integrity until they show otherwise.

Isnt this incumbant on the other general to do his homework on what my
list can field? or after the first game to wander over an glance at
the various armies?

> Oh, and the new 14.0 will require a player to declare in advance
what list rules and strategems his army can employ/possess. This will
give the opponent the chance to look into how they work before the
game starts.







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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


I appreciate the offer and will let Scott know.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Dix <notalent@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:20:22 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott




Greetings Jon,
That could be farmed out to anyone who knows the lists and inst going
to the Lancaster events, AND is someone you folks trust. Im a bit new
to Warrior to be volunteering, though I have done it in other games.

> << UK comps have a list-checker, who sees all lists beforehand and
checks
> them for legality. I think that's a wonderful idea. >>
>
> I know that Scott does this for the NICT. I don't think we have
anyone doing it for other Lancaster events, but I do think this is a
good idea and obviously that person is not me. I am just not sure who
else it would be if Scott is too busy. I will talk to Scott about it.
>
> J
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Kelly Wilkinson
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Raytown, MO

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


Jake would be perfect. He never gets to play anymore b/c of his business as a
lead hawker. Smile
kw

JonCleaves@... wrote:
<< UK comps have a list-checker, who sees all lists beforehand and checks
them for legality. I think that's a wonderful idea. >>

I know that Scott does this for the NICT. I don't think we have anyone doing it
for other Lancaster events, but I do think this is a good idea and obviously
that person is not me. I am just not sure who else it would be if Scott is too
busy. I will talk to Scott about it.

J



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


--- On April 14 John Murphy said: ---
>
> I'm with Ewan on this 100% Jon.
>
> To me, there is nothing wrong with the comments like "we'll have to
> change that in the next clarification" or some such - and certanly
> everything right to do so if you see a problem with the way the
> rules are written. That is your job as rules author.
>
> However, Ewan is absolutely correct that during the event if you are
> going to play you surrender all your your authority to the umpire
> and he is required to rule on the rules _as written_ and your
> opinion or intent matters not a smidge more than anyone else's.
>

I'am also 100% with Ewan on this. An author's intent is irrelevant to the
interpretation of any text, as far as I'm concerned. If you want the text to
better match your intent, then be a better writer (he says with a smile).
Believe me, we'll all help you get there.

And I, for one, would much prefer to have Jon playing in rather than umping
tournaments. I think seeing first-hand how someone else reads and interprets
his words is an invaluable part of the writing/editorial process.


-Mark Stone.


P.S. to Mike Turner: thanks for your follow up. No offense taken, I just don't
want to see us move even a little ways towards treating one man's tactics as
another man's devious gimmicks.

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Greg Preston
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:14 am    Post subject: Re: Re: Time for gripes and complaints to Jon and Scott


If you want someone to list check for some of the big events I am more
than happy to.

And maybe someone from the US could do the same for our big events down
here in Oz if we ever go to this system.

(although I must confess- we have never had much luck in getting people
to hand in lists before comps- some don't even have them -ON THE
MORNING- let alone in sufficient time to be checked.)

Greg P.

On 15/04/2005, at 0:22, JonCleaves@... wrote:

> << UK comps have a list-checker, who sees all lists beforehand and
> checks
> them for legality.  I think that's a wonderful idea.  >>
>
> I know that Scott does this for the NICT.  I don't think we have
> anyone doing it for other Lancaster events, but I do think this is a
> good idea and obviously that person is not me.  I am just not sure who
> else it would be if Scott is too busy.  I will talk to Scott about it.
>
> J
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>


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