Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

Here's my take on why the nuances of force marching matter so much:

I'll use my trusty Knights of Saint John as an example. Suppose your ideal
scenario is to take a 4 model unit of bombards and force march it to the center
line, or as close to the center line as you can get it, _and_ have it be
directly behind a stone wall. It's actually quite tricky to do this.

1st try: You write down in deployment a point on the center line where the stone
wall will be, and you write down the bombards force marched directly behind the
wall. Unfortunately, your opponent has a unit of LI force marched to the same
spot, meaning you both move back 120p. Since you really don't want to move the
bombards (then you'd have to wait a couple bounds for them to shoot), and even
if you did they'd only move 80p, you've now essentially given your opponent a
stone wall with which to protect his LI (since, in approaches, he can move 120p
back up to the center line, and there isn't a thing you can do about it).

2nd try: Wise to your error the first time, you write your deployment
differently this time. You indicate both the stone wall and the bombards to be
120p back from the center line. Again, your opponent has an LI unit force
marched directly opposite to the center line. Your bombards must now move back
60p, and his LI must move back 60p. You haven't conceded the stone wall to him,
but your bombards aren't really enjoying the full protection of the stone wall
you intended.

3rd try: You write down yet another force march deployment, this time with the
stone wall and bombards 240p back from the center line. Glancing at the table,
you realize this buys you hardly any distance at all, and hardly seems worth
smacking 2 CPF for force marching on your bombards. You wad up your deployment
orders and throw them out, still in search of the right answer.

4th try: Clearly the bombards are going to need some help getting to the right
place on the battlefield. You enlist the help of a 2 stand unit of LI. You write
your force march this way: the LI force march directly to the center line.
Exactly 120p from the center line, and directly behind the LI, you put your
stone wall. Directly behind your stone wall you put the bombards. Unfortunately,
your opponent has force marched an LI unit that is wider than your LI unit
directly to the center line and opposite your LI. This means that the enemy body
is now visible to your bombards. The result: your bombards are going to have to
move back. This is clearly mandated by 14.43, since the enemy LI and your
bombards are "visible to and within 240p of each other". The bombards, your LI,
and the enemy LI all start moving back equal distances. After having moved back
60p, the bombards are now 240p from the enemy LI and don't have to move back any
further. The opposing LI are still within 240p of each other, and thus have to
keep moving back. Moving your LI back 120p (I'm assuming it's 1 stand wide and 2
deep in this example) would cause it to end up interpenetrating the bombards, so
-- I think -- it gets placed directly behind. End result: the bombards are 60p
back from the stone wall, with enemy LI 300p away, and a friendly LI unit
directly to their rear. Not really the result you were looking for, now, is it?

5th try: This time you buy a bigger LI unit. 4 stands, to be force marched in a
4 wide, 1 deep formation. You write your deployment order thus: the LI force
march to the center line. The stone wall goes directly behind the LI. The
bombards go directly behind the LI. Your opponent has once again force marched
an LI unit directly opposite. This time your LI call over their shoulders,
"Don't look! There's no enemy here. Really! Trust us." And low and behold, this
works. The enemy LI is within 240p of the bombards at the moment that both
armies have deployed, but at that very moment it is not visible. So, at the
point in army deployment when you are supposed to check to see who among force
marchers is required to move back, the bombards do not meet the conditions
specified in 14.43. Voila! You have an LI unit that gets bounced back 120,
putting it 40p behind the bombards, but that's no big deal. You now have your
bombards force marched to within 20p of the center line, and neatly set up
directly behind a stone wall, looking at an enemy LI 140p away. And your
opponent is very confused as to why you just can't stop giggling.

That's my literal reading of the rules. And I could well be wrong. I can see
several points where the interactions are open to interpretation. So Jon, maybe
a request for a little clarification isn't out of line here.


-Mark Stone

I don't think that visibility is the issue - if the enemy LI are
visible to your force marching LI they are known to your bombards,
who are within 240 paces

ANW

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> Here's my take on why the nuances of force marching matter so much:
>
> I'll use my trusty Knights of Saint John as an example. Suppose
your ideal
> scenario is to take a 4 model unit of bombards and force march it
to the center
> line, or as close to the center line as you can get it, _and_ have
it be
> directly behind a stone wall. It's actually quite tricky to do
this.
>
> 1st try: You write down in deployment a point on the center line
where the stone
> wall will be, and you write down the bombards force marched
directly behind the
> wall. Unfortunately, your opponent has a unit of LI force marched
to the same
> spot, meaning you both move back 120p. Since you really don't want
to move the
> bombards (then you'd have to wait a couple bounds for them to
shoot), and even
> if you did they'd only move 80p, you've now essentially given your
opponent a
> stone wall with which to protect his LI (since, in approaches, he
can move 120p
> back up to the center line, and there isn't a thing you can do
about it).
>
> 2nd try: Wise to your error the first time, you write your
deployment
> differently this time. You indicate both the stone wall and the
bombards to be
> 120p back from the center line. Again, your opponent has an LI
unit force
> marched directly opposite to the center line. Your bombards must
now move back
> 60p, and his LI must move back 60p. You haven't conceded the stone
wall to him,
> but your bombards aren't really enjoying the full protection of
the stone wall
> you intended.
>
> 3rd try: You write down yet another force march deployment, this
time with the
> stone wall and bombards 240p back from the center line. Glancing
at the table,
> you realize this buys you hardly any distance at all, and hardly
seems worth
> smacking 2 CPF for force marching on your bombards. You wad up
your deployment
> orders and throw them out, still in search of the right answer.
>
> 4th try: Clearly the bombards are going to need some help getting
to the right
> place on the battlefield. You enlist the help of a 2 stand unit of
LI. You write
> your force march this way: the LI force march directly to the
center line.
> Exactly 120p from the center line, and directly behind the LI, you
put your
> stone wall. Directly behind your stone wall you put the bombards.
Unfortunately,
> your opponent has force marched an LI unit that is wider than your
LI unit
> directly to the center line and opposite your LI. This means that
the enemy body
> is now visible to your bombards. The result: your bombards are
going to have to
> move back. This is clearly mandated by 14.43, since the enemy LI
and your
> bombards are "visible to and within 240p of each other". The
bombards, your LI,
> and the enemy LI all start moving back equal distances. After
having moved back
> 60p, the bombards are now 240p from the enemy LI and don't have to
move back any
> further. The opposing LI are still within 240p of each other, and
thus have to
> keep moving back. Moving your LI back 120p (I'm assuming it's 1
stand wide and 2
> deep in this example) would cause it to end up interpenetrating
the bombards, so
> -- I think -- it gets placed directly behind. End result: the
bombards are 60p
> back from the stone wall, with enemy LI 300p away, and a friendly
LI unit
> directly to their rear. Not really the result you were looking
for, now, is it?
>
> 5th try: This time you buy a bigger LI unit. 4 stands, to be force
marched in a
> 4 wide, 1 deep formation. You write your deployment order thus:
the LI force
> march to the center line. The stone wall goes directly behind the
LI. The
> bombards go directly behind the LI. Your opponent has once again
force marched
> an LI unit directly opposite. This time your LI call over their
shoulders,
> "Don't look! There's no enemy here. Really! Trust us." And low and
behold, this
> works. The enemy LI is within 240p of the bombards at the moment
that both
> armies have deployed, but at that very moment it is not visible.
So, at the
> point in army deployment when you are supposed to check to see who
among force
> marchers is required to move back, the bombards do not meet the
conditions
> specified in 14.43. Voila! You have an LI unit that gets bounced
back 120,
> putting it 40p behind the bombards, but that's no big deal. You
now have your
> bombards force marched to within 20p of the center line, and
neatly set up
> directly behind a stone wall, looking at an enemy LI 140p away.
And your
> opponent is very confused as to why you just can't stop giggling.
>
> That's my literal reading of the rules. And I could well be wrong.
I can see
> several points where the interactions are open to interpretation.
So Jon, maybe
> a request for a little clarification isn't out of line here.
>
>
> -Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

On Jan 28 ANW wrote:
>
> I don't think that visibility is the issue - if the enemy LI are
> visible to your force marching LI they are known to your bombards,
> who are within 240 paces
>
> ANW

"Known" and "visible" are two different concepts. Armies "know" things that any
unit knows, and hence each individual unit knows those things as well. Units see
things, which are "visible" to them.

The rule in question makes no reference to "known". Hence what another unit may
know does not apply to the bombards. The rule in question references only
"visible", which is what is visible directly to the bombards.

Think about it: if the enemy LI were less than 240p away and concealed by a
woods, they would not force the bombards back because the bombards can't see
them. This is exactly the same situation, unless Jon wants to "clarify"
otherwise.


-Mark Stone

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> -Mark Stone

Mark,
Thanks for the centerline theories, as you've accounted for most of
the forcemarching concerns. However, I think you may have missed
some subtle and obsure aspects of forcemarching. Namely,
forcemarching a large portion of an army can sometimes be the only
hope of victory: Now or never . Also, bombards are somewhat rare
and cumbersome regardless of possitioning.

Let us relook at your scenarios with all the stone walls in a list
like Swiss. If I place the walls 120p from the centerline, and I
forcemarch my LI HG to the wall, I will not be forced back from the
wall by the enemy LI unless I'm outscouted. So I'm outscouted, but
I've forcemarched my entire (or half) of my army forward. If the
enemy doesn't reciprocate, I will gain the wall.

Now consider--as a mental exercise only--the stone wall in 6E
sections placed in a crenalated fashion at 240p and 120p to a width
of 24E. This particular defensive seems at first glance to be
gemmicie gamesmanship, but no! This more reasonably represents the
stone wall fields of Switzerland more reasonably that a single wall
stretching some 1.2 kilometers. If part of the army is forcemarched
to the forward walls now, the rear walls provide support once the non-
forcemarched units get there. I forcemarch my LI to the forward
walls, and bring up the rest of the army in the first bound to sit
behind the back walls. Now the enemy will fight for the forward
walls that once taken will become channels for counter attacks. The
enemy, probably tired, force back across a wall (obsticle) now
becomes disordered and will shortly rout.

Just some fun with walls
Wanax

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 1/29/2004 12:09:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mark@... writes:

> Think about it: if the enemy LI were less than 240p away and concealed by a
> woods, they would not force the bombards back because the bombards can't see
> them. This is exactly the same situation, unless Jon wants
> to "clarify" otherwise.>>

No, you have the right of it.

Jon

[Greg Regets]

Consider using the walls to form a big arrow that points directly to
the front of your bombards.

Not very subtle, but I have seen lesser tactics work to deadly
effect. ;-)

g