Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

There have been several comments of late on the mailing list despairing the lack
of power that chariots have in general competition. The consensus seems to be
that chariots work fine in a theme event and/or historical matchup, but don't
have much value in open competition.

Using chariots effectively requires a lot of thought. And we have yet to see the
best chariots, which will be in Oriental Warrior where some of them can have
LTS or 2HCT for the crew. But even the Biblical Warrior chariot armies have
some possibilities that haven't been metioned on the list yet.

Start with the basic premise: chariots are a cheap shock troop that are also a
cause of unease. Compare: 2 model unit of Irr B 4 horse HCh, crew of 2 w/JLS:
83 points. 2 stand unit of Irr B HC L,Sh: 79 points. The chariot unit counts as
10 figures for taking CPF, and gets shot at as EHC (always shielded), and
creates a cause of unease. The HC have a longer tactical move and can enter
brush, etc. The two units cost about the same. How do they differ?

General, the HC will fight other cav more effectively, and the HCh will fight
infantry more effectively. Look at how they fare (a) against each other, and
(b) against 16 figures of MI LTS,Sh.

The first challenge against the HC for the chariots is to actually get to 120p,
so that the chariots can charge impetuously. Let's assume they do. And let's
assume the HC have no additional causes of unease so that they too charge
impetuously. Even die rolls, for simplicity:
L vs. HCh = 4 +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) = 7. 5@7 = 30.
Ch horse vs. HC = 2 +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) = 5. 4@5 =16.
Ch crew vs. HC = 2 +1 (JLS) = 3. 2@3 = 4. 16 + 4 = 20.
So the HCh lose to HC rather decisively, though not enough to be routed. Note
that chariots actually do _better_ against knights because the horses are at a
3 instead of a 2.

Now compare both fighting the LTS foot:
L vs. MI = 4 +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) -2 (facing LTS) = 5. 5@5 = 20.
LTS vs. HC = 4 +1 (receiving impetuous mtd charge) = 5. 6@5 = 24.

Ch horse vs. MI = 2 + 1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) -2 (facing LTS) = 3. 4@3 = 10.
Ch crew vs. MI = 2 + 1 (JLS) = 3. 2@3 = 5. 10 + 5 = 15.
LTS vs. HCh = 3 +1 (receiving impetuos mtd charge) = 6. 6@4 = 18.

Both the HC and the HCh lose, both need an up 1 roll to win. However, the
chariots are neither tired nor disordered as a result of this combat, whereas
the HC are both.

And here's where the "missing ingredient" comes in. An oft-overlooked fact about
chariots is that a second rank of JLS-armed foot can fight from behind a front
rank of chariots, counting half the figures. This combination dramatically
changes the effectiveness of chariots against infantry. This combination can be
achieved in a couple of ways.

First: several armies are entitled to get chariot runner detachments for their
chariots. If you haven't thought that detachments were an interesting option,
think again. On the Neo Hittite list (#25), for example, you can configure a
unit like this:
2 models of 4 horse HCh w/Reg B crew of 1 w/JLS, 1 w/JLS,B
detachment: 4 stands of Reg C LMI JLS,Sh

Look how this unit fares charging the same MI LTS unit:
Ch horse vs. MI = 2 +1 (charging) -2 (facing LTS) = 1. 8@1=12.
Ch crew vs. MI = 2 + 1 (JLS) = 3. 4@3 = 10.
Other foot vs. MI = 3 +1 (JLS) +1 (charging) -2 (facing LTS) = 3. 4@3 = 10.
12 + 10 + 10 = 32.
LTS vs. HCh = 3. 12@3 = 30.

Instead of a loss, this is now a win, and indeed the chariot unit should
straight up rout the LTS unit on the follow up bound. This should open up a
whole new range of chariot tactics against foot.

Second: any army can take it's general as a staff element, and have that staff
element join another body. Thus a general in a chariot could join a body of
javelin armed foot (or even start the game joined to that body). Let's look at
an interesting extreme example of this:

On the Kushite Egyptian list you can get the following:
1 model of CinC in 4 horse HCh w/Irr A crew of 1 w/B, 1 w/JLS,B
1 model of subgeneral in 4 horse HCh w/Irr A crew of 1 w/B, 1 w/JLS,B
2 units of 2 stands of Irr A LMI JLS,Sh

Suppose that each general is has joined one of these javelin units, is in the
front of the unit, and that together they have approached to 120p of an 8 stand
unit of MI P,Sh, which they charge impetuously. We'll first work out the
results of even die rolls, but note that (a) with the generals these units are
unlikely to roll down, and (b) that there is roughly a 55% chance that one of
them will roll up.

Ch horse vs. MI = 2 +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) -2 (facing pike) = 3. 4@3 = 10.
Ch crew vs. MI = 2 + 1 (one crew has JLS) = 3. 1@2 = 2, 1@3 = 3.
Other foot vs. MI = 3 +1 (charging) +1 (JLS) +2 (impetuous) -2 (facing pike) =
5. 2@5 = 8.
10 + 2 + 3 + 8 = 21. 21x2 = 42

P vs. HCh = 3 + 1 (receiving mtd charge) = 4. 8@4 = 24. 24x2 = 48.

The pikes lose, but it's very close. Even if neither chariot unit rolls up, if
the pikes roll down (and neither chariot rolls down 2), then the pikes lose.
And if either chariot unit rolls up, then overall the chariots win, recoiling
the pikes disordered, even if the pikes roll up 1. The bottom line is if you
charge the pikes in this manner, you have about a 2/3 chance of recoiling the
pikes disordered. Suffice it to say that your odds against any other kind of
infantry get considerably better.

Chariots are more resistant to shooting than any mounted but SHK or SHC (they're
the same factor as EHC, but count as more figures). Put javelin-armed foot
behind them, and they hit foot harder than any mounted with the possible
exception of SHK. They cost considerably less than SHK, meaning you either have
more chariots, or more points to spend on other things in your army. So that's
what chariots are good for: in tandem with JLS-armed foot, beating the absolute
crap out of enemy foot.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/21/2004 07:15:52 Central Daylight Time,
mdevans@... writes:
In that piece, Mark commented on joining a general's staff element
with a foot unit as an effective method of dealing with other foot.
My reading of 4.13 is that if a mounted general joins a foot unit, it
is treated as if in the front rank for eagerness, random factor and
risk, but is not treated as fighting except for cpf calculation.

As such, the chariot horses and figures would not count in the combat.

Is my interpretation correct Jon?>>

Correct - they would count for CPF but be in the back rank


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark wrote an interesting piece about Chariots, which is quite timely
as we are about to hold a Biblical comp (more details in another post)

In that piece, Mark commented on joining a general's staff element
with a foot unit as an effective method of dealing with other foot.
My reading of 4.13 is that if a mounted general joins a foot unit, it
is treated as if in the front rank for eagerness, random factor and
risk, but is not treated as fighting except for cpf calculation.

As such, the chariot horses and figures would not count in the combat.

Is my interpretation correct Jon?

Muz


> Second: any army can take it's general as a staff element, and have
that staff
> element join another body. Thus a general in a chariot could join a
body of
> javelin armed foot (or even start the game joined to that body).
Let's look at
> an interesting extreme example of this:
>
> On the Kushite Egyptian list you can get the following:
> 1 model of CinC in 4 horse HCh w/Irr A crew of 1 w/B, 1 w/JLS,B
> 1 model of subgeneral in 4 horse HCh w/Irr A crew of 1 w/B, 1
w/JLS,B
> 2 units of 2 stands of Irr A LMI JLS,Sh
>
> Suppose that each general is has joined one of these javelin units,
is in the
> front of the unit, and that together they have approached to 120p
of an 8 stand
> unit of MI P,Sh, which they charge impetuously. We'll first work
out the
> results of even die rolls, but note that (a) with the generals
these units are
> unlikely to roll down, and (b) that there is roughly a 55% chance
that one of
> them will roll up.
>
> Ch horse vs. MI = 2 +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) -2 (facing pike) =
3. 4@3 = 10.
> Ch crew vs. MI = 2 + 1 (one crew has JLS) = 3. 1@2 = 2, 1@3 = 3.
> Other foot vs. MI = 3 +1 (charging) +1 (JLS) +2 (impetuous) -2
(facing pike) =
> 5. 2@5 = 8.
> 10 + 2 + 3 + 8 = 21. 21x2 = 42
>
> P vs. HCh = 3 + 1 (receiving mtd charge) = 4. 8@4 = 24. 24x2 = 48.
>

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/21/2004 16:44:11 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:
Gee, it's just great that you _think_ that, Jon. And where, exactly, in the
rules does it say this? >>

4.13



<<Oh, and don't say 4.13,>>

Damn! Too late!! lol

<< because I've been there and read that already. 4.13 says
"when a general joins" -- the act of joining. It does not says "when a general
is joined" -- the state of being joined. As far as I can tell, there are no
restrictions on what one can do with respect to formation changes, exchanging
ranks, etc., once the act of joining has been completed.>>

The mounted staff element is placed behind the rear rank when joined to a
foot body, as it says, and is not a full part of the body - this is why it does
not count fighting figures (ever) just for CPF and some aspects of troop state.

<<Now, of course, if you'd like to "clarify" that there is such a restriction,
that's your perogative.>>

I have done so, three times today in fact. To help with any further
misunderstanding, answers to rules and list questions in this forum from FHE are
every
bit as official as the clarification document. I simply cannot be in the
business of updating with every wording issue. I hope to correct this with the
new rulebook. I have admitted a dozen times that I am dissatisfied with some
of the wording of the first printing and that those problems are entirely my
fault.

<< I'm all in favor of anything that enables my knights to
more thoroughly beat the crap out of chariot armies; I was just trying to look
for some creative ways to make chariot armies other than your cherished Han
Chinese more viable.>>

We do not balance chariot armies v K armies - we balance armies in period. I
would also submit that there are ways to mitigate the K v Ch imbalance
without joining chariot generals in such a way that they fight inside foot units
-
something that is against the rules.

And the Han are not some sort of 'top chariot army' - if that title goes to
anyone, it would be the classical Indian army or Mithridatic.

Sorry for any confusion.

Jon


-Mark Stone


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

--- On April 20, Jon Cleaves said ---

>> That applies to the bound in which the general joined. Is there anything that
>> prevents exchanging ranks on a subsequent bound? I'm not
>> aware of it.>>
>
> If a mounted staff element joining foot, it must remain behind the rear rank -
> it does not actually join the rear rank.

Gee, it's just great that you _think_ that, Jon. And where, exactly, in the
rules does it say this? ;-)

Oh, and don't say 4.13, because I've been there and read that already. 4.13 says
"when a general joins" -- the act of joining. It does not says "when a general
is joined" -- the state of being joined. As far as I can tell, there are no
restrictions on what one can do with respect to formation changes, exchanging
ranks, etc., once the act of joining has been completed.

Now, of course, if you'd like to "clarify" that there is such a restriction,
that's your perogative. I'm all in favor of anything that enables my knights to
more thoroughly beat the crap out of chariot armies; I was just trying to look
for some creative ways to make chariot armies other than your cherished Han
Chinese more viable.


-Mark Stone