Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

<<1. I think the requirement for CinC and Sub-Generals to be
part of a staff element that includes a large number of
bodyguards does a grave disservice to the Great Captains of
the Ancient world.>>

Actually, we have a separate leader rule in Fantasy Warrior that is working
famously. I am going to make it a Warrior x-rule after a little more work.

<<> 2. Ref the discussion on LB second rank, having actually
> fired all three weapons or current versions of them, I can't
> understand why LB can't fire full in the second rank and
> crossbow can.>>


Please write an LB x-rule. I'd like to try it out.

<<> 3. Since I only own 15mm (the one true and holy scale), the
> previous 25 vs 28 vs 30mm discussion interested me only in
> the fact that I can make anyone whatever size base they
> want, (warning, shameless plug ahead) as I am Bill's Bases.
> I make magnetic or non magnetic bases out of PVC or
> Hardboard in any size or number needed, 1/8" or 1/4" thick.
> 10% off in addition to any other discounts to Warrior List
> members. 80mm orders welcome!>>


Got a website, there, Bill's Bases?

> <<4. 15mm is the only scale possible for Fantasy Warrior. >>


I know what followed this sentence was all tongue in cheek, but I do have
Fantasy Warrior armies in both scales and they play very well in each scale.
We did a 2000 point Battle of the Anduin last fall that instantly added six
playtesters to the ranks. It was awesome.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear fellow Gamers, Historians and others lusting for naked
nymphs

I was not raised on any of the WRG/DBA/DBM legacy, so I
approach from a dedicated Napoleonic gamers perspective.
Based some recent posts, I would like to make the following
observations. Please forgive the length. My goal is to
stimulate intelligent and learned discourse.

1. I think the requirement for CinC and Sub-Generals to be
part of a staff element that includes a large number of
bodyguards does a grave disservice to the Great Captains of
the Ancient world. I can find no evidence of such large
staff/bodyguards encumbering Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar,
Attila or Genghis Khan. Instead, my readings clearly
indicate that these leaders rapidly moved to the critical
point of the battlefield to oversee the major effort. The
various writings indicate that after giving final orders to
his generals, Alexander (without mention of any bodyguards)
joined the Companion Cav in order to be able to launch them
at the right time and control their subsequent actions. At
Alesia, Caesar was constantly moving from hot spot to hot
spot, in order to direct the battle and provide motivation,
yet there is no mention of a large bodyguard trooping around
after him, which could hardily be missed in the confines of
the inner lines. At Cannae, Hannibal is stationed behind
the main line, in order to direct the designed withdrawal.
Hard to imagine him being able to freely move laterally,
tied to a large body of noble cavalry. (BTW, how do you
fit 4-5 staff elements around the CinC for the pre-battle
pep talk?) My main point is that when I pay for a General,
I expect him to act as a battlefield leader, moving freely
around his command to do the most good, rallying broken
troops, prompting charges and maybe joining a unit for the
critical push (SG only, not CinC!). Not preforming pretty
manuvers with his loyal followeres. I grant that if I had a
mighty warrior that was the previous incarnation of Marshall
Ney, (the perfect Rash General) I would be tempted to give
him a single powerful unit command, to limit his ability to
cause problems. Yet I would be insane to do the same with a
Davout. Plus I would rather use the points to get more
troops. A bonus to this is that if Generals can move more
freely, they have a better chance of catching broken/routing
troops. If on board rallying can take place, then maybe
people will begin to use lesser quality troops, instead of
pumping up D's to B's and the battles will be a little more
historical. Note that I am not saying at this should apply
to all Army Lists, only to those armies or leaders that had
demonstrated this level of sophistication. There is no
rebasing required, the General can be accompanied by a
Standard if desired, but the General's stand would have no
combat power and can not melee; he can only join a unit to
help/inspire. Not a demand for change (bet you didn't see
that coming, eh Jon), just for consideration as an X-rule or
a by army allowance from the List Master. However, at my
house, good Generals roam free, as (insert favorite Deity
here) intended.

2. Ref the discussion on LB second rank, having actually
fired all three weapons or current versions of them, I can't
understand why LB can't fire full in the second rank and
crossbow can. Once you elevate the CB for long range fire,
you can't see the target, because of the bulk of the weapon
is in your line of sight, unlike a B or LB. I wouldn't want
to have someone behind me loading and aiming a crossbow,
with only a non UL or OSHA approved trigger keeping that
bolt from launching into my back. Or what if the crossbowman
get jostled in the close order and accidentally squeezes the
trigger? The B or LB would be much more controllable or
effective in close order. And I certainly can't understand
why I can't have 4 ranks of LB, with all ranks firing,
(full, half, half, half) and the range controlled by
commands of full draw, ¾ draw, half draw, oops, draw swords!
Seems to me that was the real strength of the English armies
were the huge numbers of arrows arriving on the selected
target before the enemy can close. Additionally, did no one
ever figure out that if the guys with the spears and shields
in the front kneeled down, the guys with bows can aim
better? Maybe as a precursor to volley fire? The unit
fires a volley or two of arrows and then has the guys in
front with shields raise shield to block incoming response.
If units can make the orb or testudo work, how tough would
this have been? I would say restricted to regular troops,
as training and loud NCOs required. If anyone can show me a
source that says it was tried and failed, I will accept
it. I mean, as long as we are not playing a tournament,
what harm is there in letting players experiment with
tactical innovations to make an army more effective or to do
a what if scenario? I wouldn't be upset if my opponent put
his Reg Bows behind his Reg Spears, seems logical to me and
gives me a different tactical problem to solve. By the way,
anyone object to the large volume of indirect fire being
delivered during the legionaries advance in the opening
battle of Gladiator? If I was a foot soldier, the more fire
coming from behind me in support, the better I like it. I
suspect it is as true in Roman days as today (I'm a former
grunt)

3. Since I only own 15mm (the one true and holy scale), the
previous 25 vs 28 vs 30mm discussion interested me only in
the fact that I can make anyone whatever size base they
want, (warning, shameless plug ahead) as I am Bill's Bases.
I make magnetic or non magnetic bases out of PVC or
Hardboard in any size or number needed, 1/8" or 1/4" thick.
10% off in addition to any other discounts to Warrior List
members. 80mm orders welcome!

4. 15mm is the only scale possible for Fantasy Warrior.
Given that one elf, one dwarf, two humans (granted that one
is a future king) and two hobbits (count as one human, elf
or dwarf) dispatched 100 Orcs (give or take a few) in a
recent film (a ratio of 1:20), I will need a minimum of 20
Orc units for each human, elf or dwarf units fielded by my
victim, I mean worthy opponent. Therefore if you challenge
The Dread Lord of Evil (have signed affidavits from 3 ex-
wives), and put out 10 units, I have to have at least 100 to
make it fair. Given these huge numbers, it obviously
requires 15mm figures as the maximum on a 9' x 5' table
(hmmmm, that's the size of the table in my house).

5. For those that lust after 25mm naked nymphs, please
restrain yourselves, we have enough problems with the public
now. When you're alone, behind closed doors, might I
suggest 54mm as a more visually simulating range. Or so I
have heard, ahem.

Thank you for your consideration

Bill Ballinger
President, Bill's Bases
"Quality Magnetic Wargame Bases"
Website:
http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/g/a/gamegod/Index.html

[Don Coon]

1. I think the requirement for CinC and Sub-Generals to be
part of a staff element that includes a large number of
bodyguards does a grave disservice to the Great Captains of
the Ancient world. However, at my
house, good Generals roam free, as (insert favorite Deity
here) intended.

Generals on a lone staff element are allowed per the rules. They are not
encumbered by lots of body guard troops. I wonder if you are misreading the
rules. ALL of my Roman CINC and Subs run around alone (going to hot spots
as you so elequently put it). An element is the smallest thingy in Warrior.
Are you saying that you have generals single based? It would be a point
savings to not have to pay for the 2 bodyguard figs that I never use, but I
think that is all part of the cost of this roaming rallying order issueing
(insert favorite diety(ies) here). Interested in your reply, as I think
Warrior is already in tune with you here.

2. Ref the discussion on LB second rank, having actually
fired all three weapons or current versions of them, I can't
understand why LB can't fire full in the second rank and
crossbow can.

Remember the second rank of figs on the table, do not represent the second
rank of MEN historically. I can not go much further here without getting on
16 horse feet, but number of ranks of FIGS firing is only a game mechanic to
get proper troop mass/rate of fire/ammo consumption etc.

3. Since I only own 15mm (the one true and holy scale),

Ah. A single size devotee (and a tiny one at that). I prefer to dabble in
the bigger provence (as well as 15mm). Oh and the size of my figs IS NOT
compensating for anything.

4. 15mm is the only scale possible for Fantasy Warrior.
Given that one elf, one dwarf, two humans (granted that one
is a future king) and two hobbits (count as one human, elf
or dwarf) dispatched 100 Orcs (give or take a few) in a
recent film (a ratio of 1:20), I will need a minimum of 20
Orc units for each human, elf or dwarf units fielded by my
victim, I mean worthy opponent.

Those movie dudes were heroes. Your main forces of Dwarves, Elves etc,
would be more like the poor souls who litter the floors of Moria. Besides
troops scales could also affect this ratio (in Warrior one element of SHK is
not the sdame number of men as 1 element of Irr E LMI).

Great post dude.

Don

--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> > 3. Since I only own 15mm (the one true and holy scale), the
> > previous 25 vs 28 vs 30mm discussion interested me only in
> > the fact that I can make anyone whatever size base they
> > want, (warning, shameless plug ahead) as I am Bill's Bases.
> > I make magnetic or non magnetic bases out of PVC or
> > Hardboard in any size or number needed, 1/8" or 1/4" thick.
> > 10% off in addition to any other discounts to Warrior List
> > members. 80mm orders welcome!>>
>
>
> Got a website, there, Bill's Bases?

http://personal.bellsouth.net/jax/g/a/gamegod/Price%20List.htm

Great product - I've bought bases from him several times. I'll never
cut plywood again!

-Bill
jblittlefield@...

----- Original Message -----
From: <jjendon@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] A Piggyback on Standards


> 4. 15mm is the only scale possible for Fantasy Warrior.
> Given that one elf, one dwarf, two humans (granted that one
> is a future king) and two hobbits (count as one human, elf
> or dwarf) dispatched 100 Orcs (give or take a few) in a
> recent film (a ratio of 1:20), I will need a minimum of 20
> Orc units for each human, elf or dwarf units fielded by my
> victim, I mean worthy opponent.
>
> Those movie dudes were heroes. Your main forces of Dwarves, Elves etc,
> would be more like the poor souls who litter the floors of Moria. Besides
> troops scales could also affect this ratio (in Warrior one element of SHK
is
> not the sdame number of men as 1 element of Irr E LMI).

An early request for Fantasy Warrior. Proper Nazgul, not the wimps in said
movie.
Kill the Baggins!!!
Paul
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Ed Forbes]

sneeky Bagginess. We hates thems weess do

> Kill the Baggins!!!
> Paul
> >

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In a message dated 4/18/02 7:25:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
PAUL.JACQ@... writes:

<<
An early request for Fantasy Warrior. Proper Nazgul, not the wimps in said
movie.
Kill the Baggins!!!
Paul
> >>


Ain't that the truth? It's so hard to get good undead help.
And those elves: "My, that's a perilous quest you're on. Here's your hat.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, and get your hands off
that horse."

John C

--- In WarriorRules@y..., "jimbo197" <billsbases@h...> wrote:
> 4. 15mm is the only scale possible for Fantasy Warrior.
> Given that one elf, one dwarf, two humans (granted that one
> is a future king) and two hobbits (count as one human, elf
> or dwarf) dispatched 100 Orcs (give or take a few) in a
> recent film (a ratio of 1:20), I will need a minimum of 20
> Orc units for each human, elf or dwarf units fielded by my
> victim, I mean worthy opponent. Therefore if you challenge
> The Dread Lord of Evil (have signed affidavits from 3 ex-
> wives), and put out 10 units, I have to have at least 100 to
> make it fair. Given these huge numbers, it obviously
> requires 15mm figures as the maximum on a 9' x 5' table
> (hmmmm, that's the size of the table in my house).

Fantasy in 15mm?!!! You've gotta be kidding!! :)

Everyone knows fantasy is done in 25mm. Large 25mm. The larger the
better. I mean, who is even seriously producing fantasy figures in
15mm? If you are going to do fantasy, do it right, in the one true
scale (30mm).

Ironically, for those who want to do Middle Earth battles (regardless
of the rules used) the best figures are by --- Games Workshop. Funny
thing is, they have gone back to true 25mm. Their figures are
sculpted by the Perry brothers. And they are actually based on the
movie (in fact the actors had to approve the figures for the
characters played in the movie.)

Other companies have done Middle Earth from time to time. Mithril
Miniatures had a Middle Earth line. Big figures: 30-35mm.
Harlequin/Icon had a line -- big, expensive, but not too impressive.
But who does Middle Earth in 15mm?

Doug

[joncleaves]

15mm fantasy is awesome, actually. some of the best figures made in any
scale are the Demonworld 15mms. They are also made by: table top, black
raven, peter pig, essex.....

I have 3 Fantasy Warrior armies in 15mm....

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Jon, don't forget to mention Jake Kovel's line of
irregular Fantasy line. Some of these are actually
quite nice especially for the price!

Kelly
--- JonCleaves@... wrote:
> 15mm fantasy is awesome, actually. some of the best
> figures made in any
> scale are the Demonworld 15mms. They are also made
> by: table top, black
> raven, peter pig, essex.....
>
> I have 3 Fantasy Warrior armies in 15mm....
>


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[Doug]

>
>And those elves: "My, that's a perilous quest you're on. Here's your hat.
>Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, and get your hands off
>that horse."
>
>John C

long those lines, check out the Secret Diaries of the Fellowship
http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243/diaries/
--

Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

"The tyranny of the legislatures is the most formidable dread at
present, and will be for long years. That of the executive will come
in it's turn, but it will be at a remote period." James Madison, 15
March 1798 (_Papers of J.M._ vol 12, p.14; LC call no. JK.111.M24)