Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Thank you for the comment Patrick, but I remember the last time I posted my
thoughts on army composition, and the roasting I took .... lol

I'm just going to accept the fact that everyone thinks the lists I play are
insane and have no possible chance at victory.

Sucks to be me ... ~wink~

G

> <html><body>
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>
> <tt>
> If you value this commentary so much. Then I suggest you post list
specific 
> "how would you run" type questions to the attention of Greg Regets.
He'll 
> post thoughtful and provocative information that gets the conversation 
> flowing with the other historians on the list. 
> It is always great. I wish we had better Email subject titles or a search 
> engine to go back and easily sort through those past emails that they
talked 
> through that included: Macedonians, K of St. John, Romans, and Saracians. 
> 
> -PB 
> 
> 
> > I, personally, would love to see 
> > more commentary on lists/tactics, etc., because IMO, it would 
> > help 'newbies' (or those ex-TOG guys getting back into it), get back 
> > into the groove. 
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Ewan McNay · Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:03 pm Post subject: Army dissection

Time to delurk. Before Jon jumps on me, note that all of the following
is my opinion, and he almost certainly disagrees with most of it Smile

.

From: "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...>
Subject: RE: Re: Mini at Historicon

Teutonic: The Early version of this is interesting. I mean it's got all
these great knights backed up by loads of the trashiest foot in the
game. That would appeal to the Chris Damours of the world. If you take
the Middle Period (I'm discussing the yet unpublished FeudWar version),
you can go with Lithuanian Allies and basically have an army of knights
and excellent LC. I'm still not so sure either option is terribly easy
to run. The former requires thought about how to use the trash Prussian
foot without suddenly losing your army to waver checks. The latter
requires decent coordination between the skirmish-shootemup troops and
the knights, something that requires some regular playing to master.

** I think that the K/LC is the easier one to run; the Prussians in the
early option are - as Scott notes - a target for the opposition,
especially when everyone will be bringing their knight armies for the
theme, hence probably running them in Mini also, and so will have lots
of K to throw at your LMI.

On the other hand, a few good terrain rolls and the Prussians look very
good Smile

. 7/10**

Italian Condotta: Tough list to run, falls into the "need to know it
well" category and few people have taken the time to learn it. Sean
Scott would be the most notable exception to that. He makes it work but
he also plays around it's limitations (wtf those are, most likely a
dearth of LC). If you go generic medieval, look to 100 Yrs War
English/WOTR assuming you have enough longbowmen or perhaps some of the
late Medieval lists from Holy Warrior.

**Even Sean has a hard time making this list playable, and I don't think
that he has really managed it. Too many expensive, compulsory,
only-semi-useful troops, and overpriced K. plus it takes several years
to work out what you can actually put together from the list Smile

. HYW
would be several orders of magnitude better. 1/10**

Marian: Unless you plan to run this pike-heavy, in which case you'd be
better off bringing a pike-trash army in the first place, leave these
guys at home to fight Sulla. Everybody elses infantry will shoot your
or beat you up, elephants will hose you, knights will barely break a
sweat running you over, unless you buy the pikes and elephants in which
case we're back to running Seleucids:) Smile

:)

** What Scott said. -20/10**

Thracian: The only person I've ever seen run this army even half
successfully was Don Carter and he would buy the required LMI, hide em
in brush for the entire game, and try to win the game with an army of HC
and LC. He won about half the time, would get hammered the other half.
Keep them at home.

**Hmm. I actually like this army. Even though the peltasts are tough
to use (because of the second-round-shieldless problem), it's still high
morale, high quality, not very expensive. Again, get lots of terrain,
but you can hapily fight in the open too. The biggest problem is
linking the open forces with your rough terrain forces; but it's hard to
lose big with this. I would not be too dissuaded. 6.5/10**

Galatian/Gallic: Everyone will tell ya "play it as Gauls" and they're
right because of the flexibility the loose order troops give you. Other
plusses are the Irr A roll dice win/lose game nature of the list.
Galatians (use the Huckleberry and Clark list) can be sooooo suceptible
to terrain. Last year, I ran em in the Mini, 25mm, 6x5 table using Ed
Bernhart's idea of putting all the close order Warriors under the CinC,
sit on the table, then flank march one command on both flanks. Said
flank consisted of 2E HC Sub and two 2E HC units and three scythed
chariots. I won one game but definitely had Sean and Eric sweating in
the two games I lost to them. Again, good terrain placement hoses you
with Galatians.

**Again, beware of lots of people bringing K. Against heavy K, when you
fight with all the effectiveness of a damp cookie, even the IrrA +2 will
not save you. Galatians suffer not only from terrain but also (to me
more crucially) from being too slow and unable to shoot. I like running
the Gauls in 27s; it's a tough choice whether to go all-IrrA or 1/2 A,
1/2 C, but I would recommend the latter. 5/10**

E Crusader: Love this list but still am figuring out the nuances of the
thing. The Irr A and HK options are nice and the close order foot can
be suprisingly tough if bought in big units and supported. Look at the
Irr E B-armed infantry. Jon and I were gonna max out on these at
Doubles at CW but played in 15mm instead. This list can damn near
consist of nothing but half Irr A cav units and somebody with a missile
weapon. Sean won the campaign theme with it so it's got something going
for it but I'm pretty sure he bought it differently.

**I've run this list several times now, both in Theme and in Open. I
like it a lot. This would be my choice of your options. Make sure to
take the foot as MI, not HI, whatever limitations on list choice that
requires. And spend some time thinking about what being all or part
IrrA is going to do to your options in terms of charging or not.
10/10.**

scott

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Ewan, I actually agree with you - I think Thracians are underrated...lol

Note that both of you are talking apples and oranges to some degree. There are
lists there that are not published yet - some where Scott knows how they will
look because we have it in draft and some where the opinion is totally based on
the WRG version.

But, for the most part, given we are not talking about Warrior lists in a lot of
cases, these comments seem about right. One thing I always tell my new players
though is that it is important to match an army to your personal style of play.
Quite often, and I think the case in this thread, we say definitive and
conclusive things about armies that are really only that way because of the
style of play the speaker personally favors.

Jon

Dave Smith · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 877

***Thanks Ewan;

The one thing that I see on other Yahoo groups is a frequent
exchange regarding army lists, tournament worthiness, pro's/con's,
opinions, etc. This to me is invaluable, and greatly assists me in
determing a direction to follow. I, personally, would love to see
more commentary on lists/tactics, etc., because IMO, it would
help 'newbies' (or those ex-TOG guys getting back into it), get back
into the groove. My last successful TOG army was Late Roman-Eastern
in 25mm. Always loved the period, and of course having triple-armed
Romans was a lot of fun, backed by all kinds of useful stuff.
Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback.

Dave

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan <ewan.mcnay@y...> wrote:
> Time to delurk. Before Jon jumps on me, note that all of the
following
> is my opinion, and he almost certainly disagrees with most of
it Smile

.
>
> From: "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@f...>
> Subject: RE: Re: Mini at Historicon
>
> Teutonic: The Early version of this is interesting. I mean it's
got all
> these great knights backed up by loads of the trashiest foot in the
> game. That would appeal to the Chris Damours of the world. If
you take
> the Middle Period (I'm discussing the yet unpublished FeudWar
version),
> you can go with Lithuanian Allies and basically have an army of
knights
> and excellent LC. I'm still not so sure either option is terribly
easy
> to run. The former requires thought about how to use the trash
Prussian
> foot without suddenly losing your army to waver checks. The latter
> requires decent coordination between the skirmish-shootemup troops
and
> the knights, something that requires some regular playing to
master.
>
> ** I think that the K/LC is the easier one to run; the Prussians
in the
> early option are - as Scott notes - a target for the opposition,
> especially when everyone will be bringing their knight armies for
the
> theme, hence probably running them in Mini also, and so will have
lots
> of K to throw at your LMI.
>
> On the other hand, a few good terrain rolls and the Prussians look
very
> good Smile

. 7/10**
>
> Italian Condotta: Tough list to run, falls into the "need to know
it
> well" category and few people have taken the time to learn it.
Sean
> Scott would be the most notable exception to that. He makes it
work but
> he also plays around it's limitations (wtf those are, most likely a
> dearth of LC). If you go generic medieval, look to 100 Yrs War
> English/WOTR assuming you have enough longbowmen or perhaps some
of the
> late Medieval lists from Holy Warrior.
>
> **Even Sean has a hard time making this list playable, and I don't
think
> that he has really managed it. Too many expensive, compulsory,
> only-semi-useful troops, and overpriced K. plus it takes several
years
> to work out what you can actually put together from the list Smile

.
HYW
> would be several orders of magnitude better. 1/10**
>
> Marian: Unless you plan to run this pike-heavy, in which case
you'd be
> better off bringing a pike-trash army in the first place, leave
these
> guys at home to fight Sulla. Everybody elses infantry will shoot
your
> or beat you up, elephants will hose you, knights will barely break
a
> sweat running you over, unless you buy the pikes and elephants in
which
> case we're back to running Seleucids:) Smile

>
> ** What Scott said. -20/10**
>
> Thracian: The only person I've ever seen run this army even half
> successfully was Don Carter and he would buy the required LMI,
hide em
> in brush for the entire game, and try to win the game with an army
of HC
> and LC. He won about half the time, would get hammered the other
half.
> Keep them at home.
>
> **Hmm. I actually like this army. Even though the peltasts are
tough
> to use (because of the second-round-shieldless problem), it's
still high
> morale, high quality, not very expensive. Again, get lots of
terrain,
> but you can hapily fight in the open too. The biggest problem is
> linking the open forces with your rough terrain forces; but it's
hard to
> lose big with this. I would not be too dissuaded. 6.5/10**
>
> Galatian/Gallic: Everyone will tell ya "play it as Gauls" and
they're
> right because of the flexibility the loose order troops give you.
Other
> plusses are the Irr A roll dice win/lose game nature of the list.
> Galatians (use the Huckleberry and Clark list) can be sooooo
suceptible
> to terrain. Last year, I ran em in the Mini, 25mm, 6x5 table
using Ed
> Bernhart's idea of putting all the close order Warriors under the
CinC,
> sit on the table, then flank march one command on both flanks.
Said
> flank consisted of 2E HC Sub and two 2E HC units and three scythed
> chariots. I won one game but definitely had Sean and Eric
sweating in
> the two games I lost to them. Again, good terrain placement hoses
you
> with Galatians.
>
> **Again, beware of lots of people bringing K. Against heavy K,
when you
> fight with all the effectiveness of a damp cookie, even the IrrA
+2 will
> not save you. Galatians suffer not only from terrain but also (to
me
> more crucially) from being too slow and unable to shoot. I like
running
> the Gauls in 27s; it's a tough choice whether to go all-IrrA or
1/2 A,
> 1/2 C, but I would recommend the latter. 5/10**
>
> E Crusader: Love this list but still am figuring out the nuances
of the
> thing. The Irr A and HK options are nice and the close order foot
can
> be suprisingly tough if bought in big units and supported. Look
at the
> Irr E B-armed infantry. Jon and I were gonna max out on these at
> Doubles at CW but played in 15mm instead. This list can damn near
> consist of nothing but half Irr A cav units and somebody with a
missile
> weapon. Sean won the campaign theme with it so it's got something
going
> for it but I'm pretty sure he bought it differently.
>
> **I've run this list several times now, both in Theme and in
Open. I
> like it a lot. This would be my choice of your options. Make
sure to
> take the foot as MI, not HI, whatever limitations on list choice
that
> requires. And spend some time thinking about what being all or
part
> IrrA is going to do to your options in terms of charging or not.
> 10/10.**
>
>
> scott

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

It seems to me that the way to buy the new list in 15mm is with a VinG CinC,
and a Neopolitan Ally-General.

This gives you moral upgrades for your knights, a ton of Stratiot LC to go with
the six stands of Turks, and the Neo Moogs.

Just my two cents ... G

> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> ***The First Crusaders are 25mm (the new Perry figures....and they 
> are superb figures, BTW), so I guess I need to determine scale 
> before anything else. I'm sure it's a different game with 25's vs. 
> 15's. I would guess I have roughly 1000 points painted for the E. 
> Crusaders, and enough nekkid lead to build it out to 1600. Scott, 
> what's the feeling for participation at H-con (25 vs. 15)? 
> 
> >In the Mini, you'll see healthy participation in both scales (around a dozen
players
in each) so don't let that drive you per se. I will say that playing a 15mm
late
knight army (like Condotta) is tougher on a 6x4 table. 
> 
> >Remember, on Saturday, the two Warrior tournaments are the NICT in 25mm and
the Open
in 15mm. So, if you want to play E Crusaders in 25mm, you'd need something in
15mm
for Saturday. Now that's a time for you to run the Condotta list since it's at
1600
points. 
> 
> Also, I looked at the Condotta FW list, and I don't think that it 
> looks half bad....in my naive opinion, that is. Nice kniggets, 
> block of solid foot, some mobile shooters, and some decent terrain 
> troops. Am I missing something with this? 
> 
> >At 1600 points, Ewan can clue me in here if I misspeak, Condotta just don't
have
enough light troops, specifically LC, that you usually see in 15mm games.
Moreover,
the required knights are Reg C and most folks like their knights to be Irr B.
Now,
I've always felt there are ways around this, that coming from a Burgundian
Ordonnance
player who wouldn't know a light troop if it rode up on a Mongol pony and shot
at
me. Terrain can cut down the table, a counter-punching style can work (if I
can make
it work with the Burgundians, then it can't be that hard) and there are some
ways to work
around the fact that your opponent most likely has more LC than you imagine. Of
course the Condotta list (I'm currently speaking from the FeudWar list so
apologize that
you can't see it....yet), if you take the Neapolitan Condotta list, you get
Moogs, more
Irr B EHK than you'll need and up to 6 Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh (to go along with
your 0-6 Reg
C LC CB). Then again, there are soooooo many options (man oh man have I tried
to
simplify this list but it's still tough in spots) that you can find a combo
that fits your
playing style. I mean there's Swiss or you can go Free Company (making it into
a
pseudo-Free Company list). Actually, I'd like to see how Sean purchases the old
list. 
> 
> scott 
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scott holder · Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:57 pm Post subject: RE: Army dissection

E Crusader: Love this list but still am figuring out the nuances of the
thing. The Irr A and HK options are nice and the close order foot can
be suprisingly tough if bought in big units and supported. Look at the
Irr E B-armed infantry. Jon and I were gonna max out on these at
Doubles at CW but played in 15mm instead. This list can damn near
consist of nothing but half Irr A cav units and somebody with a missile
weapon. Sean won the campaign theme with it so it's got something going
for it but I'm pretty sure he bought it differently.

**I've run this list several times now, both in Theme and in Open. I
like it a lot. This would be my choice of your options. Make sure to
take the foot as MI, not HI, whatever limitations on list choice that
requires. And spend some time thinking about what being all or part
IrrA is going to do to your options in terms of charging or not.
10/10.**

>Look at your orders *very* carefully. Irr A (in the front rank) no longer have
all the flexibility they used to have. If under Attack or Probe, you're
charging your Irr A's every chance you get which means you need to be very
careful in how you move them and keeping them close enough to any lead troops
without getting too close as to result in premature charges. This is an element
of Warrior that seems easy enough on paper but remains difficult to master
(without making the occasional mistake) on the table. With that in mind, you
almost want 2 commands, one predominantly infantry with Attack or Probe and the
other predominantly cav (or at least loaded up with your Irr A knights) with
Wait orders. Again, if you feel comfortable mixing troop types in commands AND
can get your Irr A knights into the suitable "attack in support of but not
attack too early" position, this army can be a tough opponent.

>I agree with Ewan in that a lot of what you'll see in the Mini (less so in the
Open) will be armies also being used in the NICT and/or Theme, so SHK will be in
abundance. Sure, your HK and Irr A options don't stand up to that well but
other options in the list provide some leverage in terms of potential missile
fire. Obviously that doesn't help you in the Open since you're restricted to
15mm. Therefore, of your stated choices and what you can expect to see, I'd
look long at hard at something medieval (again, HYW and WOTR are your best bets)
or take Ewan's advice and go whacky with the Thracians.

scott

scott holder · Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 5:06 pm Post subject: RE: Army dissection

But, for the most part, given we are not talking about Warrior lists in a lot
of cases, these comments seem about right. One thing I always tell my new
players though is that it is important to match an army to your personal style
of play. Quite often, and I think the case in this thread, we say definitive
and conclusive things about armies that are really only that way because of
the style of play the speaker personally favors.

>I agree 100%. Look at how Sean Scott and I purchased a 1600 point "campaign"
1st Crusade list for the Mini Campaign Theme at Cold Wars. (k)Night and day, of
course he won and I.....didn't. That's also why I attempted in my original
discourse to suggest certain army options that appeal to certain players. Like
Chris Damour's known affinity for D class trash is not something shared by all.

>That's another reason why I was a bit skeptical of the Thracians because it's
an army that appeals to a certain playing style. The Yuan are probably my own
personal "demon" in that regard. Love the list, but it just doesn't suit my
playing style. If I run cav armies, I have to run "punch" cav armies that have
little control but shoot/charge you to death, say Tibetans or L Hungarians as
opposed to the finesse cav armies (Teuts, myriad Byzantines) that can do the
above but require lotsa patience and planning.

>David mentioned playing TOG with L Romans and such, again, not a bad army to
run and you can also use it as E Byzantine or even Maurikians. But, if TOG was
any indication, rusty players had trouble with such armies until they got
re-experienced with the nuances of running them. While L Romans have some
awesome capability, shock and punch ain't one of em, particularly in a single
list tourney.

scott

Patrick Byrne · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1433

If you value this commentary so much. Then I suggest you post list specific
"how would you run" type questions to the attention of Greg Regets. He'll
post thoughtful and provocative information that gets the conversation
flowing with the other historians on the list.
It is always great. I wish we had better Email subject titles or a search
engine to go back and easily sort through those past emails that they talked
through that included: Macedonians, K of St. John, Romans, and Saracians.

-PB

> I, personally, would love to see
> more commentary on lists/tactics, etc., because IMO, it would
> help 'newbies' (or those ex-TOG guys getting back into it), get back
> into the groove.

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 5/7/2003 5:13:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, gar@...
writes:

> I'm just going to accept the fact that everyone thinks the
> lists I play are
> insane and have no possible chance at victory.>>

whew! man, I am glad we got that finally settled... :)

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Scott ...

Page 61, line 7, upgrade for [Mi, Pa, VG, VI].

Stratiots may also be purchased with JLS, Sh, and it is very difficult in a LC
vs. LC matchup to keep the enemy from getting to 40p.

Sure, you can buy them with lance, take tests and charge, but the question begs
asking ... Are you buying them to win the battle, or to stretch your frontage
enough to make the enemy go online, so you can get nice matchups with your
better troops?

Perhaps a better thought might be a two bound plan to get yourself into
skirmish, then move to the enemy next bound ... assuming you have a better plan
than to win, other than using Stratiots.

All in all, the list would definately be better it they gave you Huns ... but
since they don't, you just have to win with what you get. :-)

Greg

>
>
> <tt>
> It seems to me that the way to buy the new list in 15mm is with a VinG CinC,
 
> and a Neopolitan Ally-General. 
> This gives you moral upgrades for your knights, a ton of Stratiot LC to go 
> with the six stands of Turks, and the Neo Moogs. 
> 
> >Interesting, expensive, kinda, but very interesting. I think what might
drive
some people away would be the Reg C EHK/SHK (you would now be fielding 6
elements of those
not counting any you might have stuck with the CinC/Ally) plus, I've yet to see
tons of LC
Lancers deployed (the Stradiots). I mean assuming they're facing the equivalent
"Full Service" LC unit (LC JLS, B, Sh). Take the following example: 
> 
> 6E Full Service LC is 80p away from our 6E of Stradiots. Full Service is
gonna shoot
12@3 in prep at Stradiots. Even with a down 1 roll, the Stradiots are gonna
take the
waver test if they want to charge. Obviously if they're outside of 80p, they
don't
get hammered by the prep shot but obviously can't be more than 120p away
otherwise what
you're hoping to accomplish, the Full Service evade and roll down while your
Stradiots
charge and roll up and whammo, no more Full Service LC unit. The
approach/counter
sequence then becomes crucial for either player to get what they want. 
> 
> >Now, some people (like me) would probably potentially take the waver test
when running
the Stradiots (assuming they're not uneasy) since we'd blow the test on a 1 and
anyone who
rolls ones deserves to lose. However, that philosophy is not one shared by all
players who consider rolling *any* waver test an anethema to succesfully
prosecuting the
battle. Therefore, they might not look upon the Stradiots as a particularly
useful
troop type. 
> 
> scott 
> </tt>
>
> 
>
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Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Oh Gawd ... it's the Vulcan Death Grip for me now!!!!

~points at Scott~ He said something about Feudal first ... so if you kill me,
you gotta hill him first.

You are right of course Jon ... and my apologies!!!

Greg

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Dave Smith · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 877

"Holder, Scott" wrote:
<snipped a bunch of good stuff>
I agree with Ewan in that a lot of what you'll see in the Mini (less
so in the Open) will be armies also being used in the NICT and/or
Theme, so SHK will be in abundance. Sure, your HK and Irr A options
don't stand up to that well but other options in the list provide
some leverage in terms of potential missile fire. Obviously that
doesn't help you in the Open since you're restricted to 15mm.
Therefore, of your stated choices and what you can expect to see,
I'd look long at hard at something medieval (again, HYW and WOTR are
your best bets) or take Ewan's advice and go whacky with the
Thracians.

***The First Crusaders are 25mm (the new Perry figures....and they
are superb figures, BTW), so I guess I need to determine scale
before anything else. I'm sure it's a different game with 25's vs.
15's. I would guess I have roughly 1000 points painted for the E.
Crusaders, and enough nekkid lead to build it out to 1600. Scott,
what's the feeling for participation at H-con (25 vs. 15)?

Also, I looked at the Condotta FW list, and I don't think that it
looks half bad....in my naive opinion, that is. Nice kniggets,
block of solid foot, some mobile shooters, and some decent terrain
troops. Am I missing something with this?

Thanks again for the feedback. I might just plow ahead with the
Crusaders in 25, but I need to be mindful of what everyone plays
around here (which appears to be 15mm).

Dave

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Scott, is Greg supposed to be revealing FeudWar secrets on the list??? lol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 5/7/2003 1:06:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
davidsmith@... writes:

> Thanks again for the feedback. I might just plow ahead with the
> Crusaders in 25, but I need to be mindful of what everyone
> plays
> around here (which appears to be 15mm).
>
> Dave>>

You want a 25mm game Monday night, Dave? Not everyone here is a rookie....

scott holder · Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:28 pm Post subject: RE: Re: Army dissection

***The First Crusaders are 25mm (the new Perry figures....and they
are superb figures, BTW), so I guess I need to determine scale
before anything else. I'm sure it's a different game with 25's vs.
15's. I would guess I have roughly 1000 points painted for the E.
Crusaders, and enough nekkid lead to build it out to 1600. Scott,
what's the feeling for participation at H-con (25 vs. 15)?

>In the Mini, you'll see healthy participation in both scales (around a dozen
players in each) so don't let that drive you per se. I will say that playing a
15mm late knight army (like Condotta) is tougher on a 6x4 table.

>Remember, on Saturday, the two Warrior tournaments are the NICT in 25mm and the
Open in 15mm. So, if you want to play E Crusaders in 25mm, you'd need something
in 15mm for Saturday. Now that's a time for you to run the Condotta list since
it's at 1600 points.

Also, I looked at the Condotta FW list, and I don't think that it
looks half bad....in my naive opinion, that is. Nice kniggets,
block of solid foot, some mobile shooters, and some decent terrain
troops. Am I missing something with this?

>At 1600 points, Ewan can clue me in here if I misspeak, Condotta just don't
have enough light troops, specifically LC, that you usually see in 15mm games.
Moreover, the required knights are Reg C and most folks like their knights to be
Irr B. Now, I've always felt there are ways around this, that coming from a
Burgundian Ordonnance player who wouldn't know a light troop if it rode up on a
Mongol pony and shot at me. Terrain can cut down the table, a counter-punching
style can work (if I can make it work with the Burgundians, then it can't be
that hard) and there are some ways to work around the fact that your opponent
most likely has more LC than you imagine. Of course the Condotta list (I'm
currently speaking from the FeudWar list so apologize that you can't see
it....yet), if you take the Neapolitan Condotta list, you get Moogs, more Irr B
EHK than you'll need and up to 6 Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh (to go along with your 0-6
Reg C LC CB). Then again, there are soooooo many options (man oh man have I
tried to simplify this list but it's still tough in spots) that you can find a
combo that fits your playing style. I mean there's Swiss or you can go Free
Company (making it into a pseudo-Free Company list). Actually, I'd like to see
how Sean purchases the old list.

scott