Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

Ed Forbes and I had an excellent game this weekend, excellent not just because
Ed is a skilled and courteous player, but because a number of significant rules
questions came up that it will be great to get answers to before I umpire next
weekend's California Tournament.

Some require a diagram to explain; some do not. Let me start with those that do
not.

(1) A shaken body receives 3 CPF in hand to hand combat. However, it also puts
out more total casualties than it receives. In what order do the following
things happen: (a) it reverts from shaken to disordered for having beaten all
hand-to-hand opponents; (b) it takes a waver test for second cause of disorder.

(2) A unit of Swiss pike/2HCT that is entirely disordered in prep shooting
receives a charge that bound by a mounted body. It halts the mounted body,
doing more to it, but not a CPF. The rear 2HCT element replaces the pike
element in the front. Right now, a literal reading of the rules for the Swiss
says that this 2HCT element fights steady next bound, even though it was
disordered _prior_ to combat. Is this indeed the intent of the Swiss rule?

For the following questions, refer to the diagram "support_shooting.ppt" that
has been uploaded to the Rules Questions folder of the files section. For all
questions here, the situation is this: Green has a unit of LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh foot
that has impetuosly charged a body of Blue's EHI LB in the previous bound, and
recoiled them. In the current bound, Green is following up. Blue has a unit of
LI JLS,Sh within 120p on the flank of Green, and a unit of LMI LB within 120p
of Green that is behind and to the side of Blue's EHI LB.

(3) If the LI JLS,Sh unit charges Green in the flank, Can Blue's LMI LB unit
support shoot? With respect to the LMI vs. EHI engagement, it is a subsequent
bound of combat. With respect to the LMI vs. LI engagement, it is a first bound
of combat. Further, as a result of the LI's charge, there is no visible Green
element not in base to base contact with some Blue element. We concluded that
the LMI LB unit cannot support shoot, but want to verify that (a) this is
correct, and (b) this is as intended.

For the remaining questions, assume the LI unit does not charge Green in the
flank.

(4) Blue's LMI LB can support shoot at Green, and Green is 2HCW in a subsequent
bound of combat. Nonetheless, the rules seem to say that 2HCW,Sh _always_
counts shielded to shooters (from a direction in which shields apply). Just
wanted to verify that this is correct.

(5) Can the rear rank of the EHI LB unit support shoot in the second bound of
combat? If so, which elements, and shooting at which target elements? Would the
answer to the question be different if the EHI unit were armed with B instead of
LB? If it were armed with CB instead of LB?


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

(1) A shaken body receives 3 CPF in hand to hand combat. However, it also puts
out more total casualties than it receives. In what order do the following
things happen: (a) it reverts from shaken to disordered for having beaten all
hand-to-hand opponents; (b) it takes a waver test for second cause of
disorder.>>
[
(b) Waver tests are immediate "as soon as the condition requiring a waver test
occurs." (5.51)

<<(2) A unit of Swiss pike/2HCT that is entirely disordered in prep shooting
receives a charge that bound by a mounted body. It halts the mounted body,
doing more to it, but not a CPF. The rear 2HCT element replaces the pike
element in the front. Right now, a literal reading of the rules for the Swiss
says that this 2HCT element fights steady next bound, even though it was
disordered _prior_ to combat. Is this indeed the intent of the Swiss rule?>>
[
Yes.

<<For the following questions, refer to the diagram "support_shooting.ppt" that
has been uploaded to the Rules Questions folder of the files section. For all
questions here, the situation is this: Green has a unit of LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh foot
that has impetuosly charged a body of Blue's EHI LB in the previous bound, and
recoiled them. In the current bound, Green is following up. Blue has a unit of
LI JLS,Sh within 120p on the flank of Green, and a unit of LMI LB within 120p
of Green that is behind and to the side of Blue's EHI LB.

(3) If the LI JLS,Sh unit charges Green in the flank, Can Blue's LMI LB unit
support shoot?>>

No, there won't be an element of green not in contact that can be shot at.

<< With respect to the LMI vs. EHI engagement, it is a subsequent
bound of combat. With respect to the LMI vs. LI engagement, it is a first bound
of combat. Further, as a result of the LI's charge, there is no visible Green
element not in base to base contact with some Blue element. We concluded that
the LMI LB unit cannot support shoot, but want to verify that (a) this is
correct, and (b) this is as intended.>>
[
Yes and yes.

<<For the remaining questions, assume the LI unit does not charge Green in the
flank.

(4) Blue's LMI LB can support shoot at Green, and Green is 2HCW in a subsequent
bound of combat. Nonetheless, the rules seem to say that 2HCW,Sh _always_
counts shielded to shooters (from a direction in which shields apply). Just
wanted to verify that this is correct.>>
[
That is correct.

<<(5) Can the rear rank of the EHI LB unit support shoot in the second bound of
combat?>>

No. 8.83. They'd need B to do that.

<< If so, which elements, and shooting at which target elements? Would the
answer to the question be different if the EHI unit were armed with B instead of
LB?>>
[
Yes, see 8.83.

<< If it were armed with CB instead of LB?>>
[
No, CB would not be able to either.

J

[Ewan McNay]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> (1) A shaken body receives 3 CPF in hand to hand combat. However, it also puts
> out more total casualties than it receives. In what order do the following
> things happen: (a) it reverts from shaken to disordered for having beaten all
> hand-to-hand opponents; (b) it takes a waver test for second cause of
disorder.>>
> [
> (b) Waver tests are immediate "as soon as the condition requiring a waver
test occurs." (5.51)

This Q has been around for a while, and so it's good to have it answered.
I am curious - for once, not arguing, just genuinely curious - how
one decides between multiple 'immediates' as here: recovery from shaken
occurs in the push-back action which is after the combat action that
caused the waver, right?

That also supports the way we have always played a disordered body that
fails a combat-caused waver (hence becoming shaken) but also recalled all
oppponents in that same combat: as the recall occurs after the waver, they
then recover to disorder but not follow-up. All good.

On multiple other frays, I'll probably enter the discussion soon. This
was a nice, friendly way to get back into the chat .

e

[joncleaves]

This Q has been around for a while, and so it's good to have it answered.
I am curious - for once, not arguing, just genuinely curious - how
one decides between multiple 'immediates' as here: recovery from shaken
occurs in the push-back action which is after the combat action that
caused the waver, right?>>

It essentially goes
-combat results
-wavers from combat results (like the above)
-combat results moves
-wavers from combat results moves (like seeing routers)



Welcome back. Everyone is looking forward to your annual 'analysis' of the NICT
lists.... :)

J

[Greg Preston]

Dear Jon,

Am I right in thinking that the last sentence of 5.51
"Shaken or disorder troops that receive a combat cause of disorder DO
NOT waver test if all of that body's hand-to-hand opponents recoil,
break-off, or break" is relevant here.

Ie that in the case of situation (1) described below if all the units
opponents were to recoil etc then the unit would not take the SECOND
DISORDER (5.52) test ?


Greg P.

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> (1) A shaken body receives 3 CPF in hand to hand combat. However, it
also puts
> out more total casualties than it receives. In what order do the
following
> things happen: (a) it reverts from shaken to disordered for having
beaten all
> hand-to-hand opponents; (b) it takes a waver test for second cause of
disorder.>>
> [
> (b) Waver tests are immediate "as soon as the condition requiring a
waver
test occurs." (5.51)

This Q has been around for a while, and so it's good to have it
answered.
I am curious - for once, not arguing, just genuinely curious - how
one decides between multiple 'immediates' as here: recovery from shaken
occurs in the push-back action which is after the combat action that
caused the waver, right?

That also supports the way we have always played a disordered body that
fails a combat-caused waver (hence becoming shaken) but also recalled
all
oppponents in that same combat: as the recall occurs after the waver,
they
then recover to disorder but not follow-up. All good.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jon wrote:
It essentially goes
-combat results
-wavers from combat results (like the above)
-combat results moves
-wavers from combat results moves (like seeing routers)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[joncleaves]

Dear Jon,

Am I right in thinking that the last sentence of 5.51
"Shaken or disorder troops that receive a combat cause of disorder DO
NOT waver test if all of that body's hand-to-hand opponents recoil,
break-off, or break" is relevant here.>>
[
Not sure. All the question said was that the shaken guy did more casualties,
not that all of his opponents recoiled, broke off or broke. It is in fact
possible for that to happen and since the combat result was not further
described, I took the question to be one of the order of events and not about
having to take the waver in the first place.

<<Ie that in the case of situation (1) described below if all the units
opponents were to recoil etc then the unit would not take the SECOND
DISORDER (5.52) test ?>>
[
Again, it depends. If he did more casualities AND forced all opponents to
recoil/break/break off, then he would not have to take the test. If he did more
casualties but did not force all opponents to recoil/break/break off then he
would take the waver.

J

[Greg Preston]

Thanks for clearing that up for me

Greg Preston


On 09/02/2005, at 1:40, JonCleaves@... wrote:
Dear Jon,

Am I right in thinking that the last sentence of 5.51
"Shaken or disorder troops that receive a combat cause of disorder DO
NOT waver test if all of that body's hand-to-hand opponents recoil,
break-off, or break" is relevant here.>>
[
Not sure.  All the question said was that the shaken guy did more
casualties, not that all of his opponents recoiled, broke off or
broke.  It is in fact possible for that to happen and since the combat
result was not further described, I took the question to be one of the
order of events and not about having to take the waver in the first
place.

<<Ie that in the case of situation (1) described below if all the units
opponents were to recoil etc then the unit would not take the SECOND
DISORDER (5.52) test ?>>
[
Again, it depends.  If he did more casualities AND forced all
opponents to recoil/break/break off, then he would not have to take the
test.  If he did more casualties but did not force all opponents to
recoil/break/break off then he would take the waver.

J





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